Young whipper-snappers or fancy foreigners?

[blueheaven]

Something I was thinking about today while reading a lot of the posts about our apparent abandonment of giving youth a chance, and also Saintkev's point about there not being "an answer" to our search for new signings.

Saints spend a significant amount of case each year on youth development. I think this is a valuable thing to spend money on. However, it loses that value if the manager doesn't want to play those youngsters in the first team. It basically becomes a waste of money. So either we should use the youth system properly, or spend that money on something else.

From what I can gather, Saints get offered trialists from abroad all the time. When Sturrock was in charge he used to take a look at a lot of these guys, and we had different foreign trialists training with the team practically every week. I understand, though, that Saints decided to stop considering most of these players, because getting them here and putting them up was too expensive.

So, my question is, if we decided to go back to the policy of looking at a large number of foreign trialists, at the expense of the youth policy, would we uncover better players who would be more likely to add something to the first team?

[lethamsaintee]

Could be a hit or a miss either way. You could just get lucky and unearth the next Simao or Sylla.

Obviously the youth system should be important, but by and large our current management team seem unwilling to give the current crop of youngsters a real chance.

Even before, the ones that seemed to have promise have all but drifted away. The likes of Mark Baxter and Ross Forsyth were decent enough players, but in the end were both freed.

For me, the last youth player though to make any kind of impact was Parker and that is 7 years ago now. Either the scouting system is not what it was or Saints are no longer the attraction they were back in the mid to late 90's when we had a plethora of decent young players coming through. It is worrying that only Andy Jackson and Kevin Moon, both sporadically, are making any kind of impact on the first team squad.

[lethamsaintee]

Just a wee thought.

Try and make a team of Saints youth players from the last 10 years or so. How would they do?

GK - The Cat

RB - Baxter

CB - McLuskey

CB - Whiteford

LB - Davidson

M - Moon

M - Fotheringham

M - Griffin

M - McAnespie

ST - Parker

ST - Jackson

I reckon that side would do not too badly, thoughts?

[Chuck Norris]

GK - The Cat

RB - Baxter

CB - McLuskey

CB - Whiteford

LB - Davidson

M - Moon

M - Fotheringham

M - Griffin

M - McAnespie

ST - Parker

ST - Jackson

I reckon that side would do not too badly, thoughts?

Purely IMHO, but I reckon that team would get finds its level at the top of Div 2. Take away Davidson and the defence is a total bombscare - and the midfield is lightweight other than Griffin.

Never really saw the hype about Fotheringham either - he seemed to be another of these mythical guys who 'stood out in training' but couldn't be arsed in reserve games so he never made it.

[blueheaven]

For me, the last youth player though to make any kind of impact was Parker and that is 7 years ago now. Either the scouting system is not what it was or Saints are no longer the attraction they were back in the mid to late 90's when we had a plethora of decent young players coming through. It is worrying that only Andy Jackson and Kevin Moon, both sporadically, are making any kind of impact on the first team squad.

Even for that "plethora" of good youngsters from the late 90s - the ones that won the SPL under 21 league - how many made it? Pretty much none. I can't really remember anyone from that side other than maybe Marc McCulloch, Stuart Malcolm and Brendan Crozier. So even when our youth development set-up was arguably producing the best players in the country at youth level, something still went wrong when it came to turning them into first team players.

[blueheaven]

GK - The Cat

RB - Baxter

CB - McLuskey

CB - Whiteford

LB - Davidson

M - Moon

M - Fotheringham

M - Griffin

M - McAnespie

ST - Parker

ST - Jackson

I reckon that side would do not too badly, thoughts?

For me, that is a very poor, lightweight, injury-prone team and I think Chuck is being generous in saying it would be anywhere near the top of Division 2. Cuthbert is our reserve keeper... McCluskey and Whiteford appear to have disappeared completely... Baxter and Fotheringham are bouncing around the usual Cowdenbeath and Montrose-type retirement homes for Saints cast-offs... Griffin is always injured and doesn't appear to be a particularly great player any more... Parker's doing alright but will never be anything special... McAnespie took a step up by signing for Morton which says a lot about how far he'd slumped... Moon and Jackson are both still youngsters so it's maybe unfair to judge them in the same way, but neither of them get a game for us. Davidson's obviously been a big success, but he's the solitary exception to the rule.

There are perhaps some slightly more reasonable players who you've left out - maybe Ross Forsyth, Eddie Malone, Charlie King, Manny Panther for example - but none of them are doing all that well either. I think the the team you've listed really says it all about how successful we've been at producing players.

[dan the saint]

Manny Panther is doing orite.

[Barty1884]

Manny Panther is doing orite.

Captaining York in the Conference or whatever it's called now?

I agree he isn't doing too bad, but i think he could be plying his trade at a higher level than that?!

[Corned Beef]

Keigan Parker isnt doing too badly, scored a screamer for Blackpool to send them up to the Championship and a first team regular. Definitely the biggest success from the Saints youth system since Davidson.

The side that Lethamsaintee posted would do alright in the first division but it would be mid-table at best. I would have maybe put Malone, Forsyth and Panther in the mix as well.

[7-2]

Griffin is always injured and doesn't appear to be a particularly great player any more... Parker's doing alright but will never be anything special....

Think youre being a bit hard on those 2 BH, especially Danny. In my eyes, he 'made it' but a wrong decision and injury stopped him going a lot further than he could have.

Parker is playing at a much higher standard than we are and I think could go further with a bit more maturity.

[Chuck Norris]

Parker is playing at a much higher standard than we are and I think could go further with a bit more maturity.

That's him gubbed then!

I think BH is mostly right about Danny - he's been through so many injuries and positional changes, he just isn't the player he used to be at all. He should have stuck to his guns years ago, played only as a central defender and left it at that.

[SlickDT]

It's an interesting topic Blueheaven, had to do alot of thinking and I would say a big part of my decision would depend on what the current manager thought about the role youth have to play.

Coyle doesn't seem to be particularly interested in our home grown players and has been bringing in others to take their place in the first team. (McCluskey, Weatherston, Irvine, Quinn) So he does seem to want to give youth a chance, just not the ones we have produced!

That seems to indicate that at the moment (along with the past ten years or so) we are struggling to produce good enough players. The fact that big money moves are no longer the norm in Scottish football also means that the money spent on young players will not likely be returned.

So the question really is who would make the most impact in the few years they are at Saints before someone takes them off us if they are good/are released because they are not good enough?!

[Simon Quinlank]

Captaining York in the Conference or whatever it's called now?

I agree he isn't doing too bad, but i think he could be plying his trade at a higher level than that?!

Panther was never up to much and has probably found his level.

Someone mentioned above that it was Sturrock who looked at a lot of these trialists. He also gave youngsters a chance though, so it would be interesting to compare the successes of each policy while both were being given a fair shout. Could anyone produce a list of the young 'uns Luggy brought through, to compare with a list of the foreigners he brought in? Might make for interesting reading - I know he brought through youngsters like Griffin, McCluskey and Davidson, but he also signed the likes of Sekerlioglu, Dasovic and Simao. If anything, that probably shows that in both areas there was probably far higher quality available to us during that era.

[WhoAreYa]

Should this topic not be called

"Young Whipper-Snappers or Fancy Foreigners or Just The Crap Nobody Else Wants But Cant Get Rid Of"

I think thats a bit more appropriate now

[SJC]

Keigan Parker was the best player on the park last night in the Blackpool v Hull match, if he keeps improving as he is doing he'll end up at a bigger club soon enough.

Maybe he would come back here if we bought him a new Mercedes.

[blueheaven]

Manny Panther is doing orite.

Panther's playing at a significantly lower level than Saints are at.

Think youre being a bit hard on those 2 BH, especially Danny. In my eyes, he 'made it' but a wrong decision and injury stopped him going a lot further than he could have.

Griffin is nowhere near the level it once looked like he was going to reach. Nowadays he's an average First Division player, and an injury-prone one at that. I take it the "wrong decision" you're referring to is the Derby thing, but there's no guarantee his career would have turned out all that differently had he gone there. Sure, he'd be a lot richer now, and Saints would have been too for that matter, but there's a good chance he wouldn't have got a game for Derby and would have ended up dropping down to someone like Stockport anyway.

Parker is playing at a much higher standard than we are and I think could go further with a bit more maturity.

Parker's done better for himself than I'd ever have predicted, but I said he'll "never be anything special" and I stand by that. I think that if he was at Saints last season he'd still have been a bench player, as I'd have picked Scotland, Peaso and Savo all ahead of him. Not so sure about this season though!

[Cagey]

This is a good thread & brings me in line with my thoughts when we signed Irvine & Quinn. How many OF youngsters have made it with the OF nevermind moved on & made it. I can`t think of too many.

[soulfulsaint]

Even for that "plethora" of good youngsters from the late 90s - the ones that won the SPL under 21 league - how many made it? Pretty much none. I can't really remember anyone from that side other than maybe Marc McCulloch, Stuart Malcolm and Brendan Crozier. So even when our youth development set-up was arguably producing the best players in the country at youth level, something still went wrong when it came to turning them into first team players.

Parker has easily gone the furthest. Remember the day we won the under-21s at Barrowfield against Celtic. Allan Preston was one of the over-age players with Roddy. Keigan was electric and scored twice. Small Saints support midweek and during the day but I also noticed a Celtic fan with a long face, I think his name is Owen Coyle. Where is he now?

[Saintkev]

On the subject of both... football in general was awash with both youths and foreigners back in Sturrocks time, now neither are appearing that often in many-sides, not just Saints!

[blueheaven]

This is a good thread & brings me in line with my thoughts when we signed Irvine & Quinn. How many OF youngsters have made it with the OF nevermind moved on & made it. I can`t think of too many.

OF youngsters are pretty much always rubbish, but that doesn't stop the media from mindlessly talking them up, which in turn is enough to make some people immediately think they're amazing signings for a club like Saints even when it's based on nothing. The fact that there are still, even now, people on here who talk up John Paul McBride's credentials as a footballer pretty much says it all. Ditto the misplaced excitement created by the signing of the largely useless Simon Donnelly. And on the day we signed Quinn, someone was on here proclaiming it to be our best signing since Jason Scotland! Remember the way the papers used to fawn over Mark Burchill? Strange how none of them ever seem to mention that now!

I hope that Irvine and Quinn are the exceptions, of course. I thought Irvine looked decent on the one occasion I've seen him play for Saints.

To bring it back to topic, there's possibly a fairly equal risk involved in taking a chance on youngsters or foreigners, but the foreign players are often more exciting and could put a few ore bums on seats. Not that I'm a fan of completely abandoning youth policies, but there's comes a point where if something's not paying off you need to cut your losses and experiment with something else.

[Saint Paul]

I would say that you have to find the balance between both, as you have the potential to unearth a star from abroad, but you also don't want to miss out on a potential talent that is right on your door step.

[wattie_rojas]

Looking at this from a neutral's point of view, I think that if OC thought he had good enough players in the youth team then he would play them.

I was at the Dundee vs Saints u19 game on Sunday which finished 4-0 to Dundee and I'd say that only Barr and maybe Doris showed any promise. The rest looked very poor TBH. I think a successful youth policy usually only provides 1 or 2 players for the first team a season as there is a huge jump in standard. Although Barr looked quite good in the second half, he looks a bit lightweight.

[Radford 72]

Looking at this from a neutral's point of view, I think that if OC thought he had good enough players in the youth team then he would play them.

I was at the Dundee vs Saints u19 game on Sunday which finished 4-0 to Dundee and I'd say that only Barr and maybe Doris showed any promise. The rest looked very poor TBH. I think a successful youth policy usually only provides 1 or 2 players for the first team a season as there is a huge jump in standard. Although Barr looked quite good in the second half, he looks a bit lightweight.

The youngsters being discussed generally aren't part of the U19 squad anymore. Two years ago, our U19s won the league and it's guys from that squad that are on the fringes of the first team and that folk are suggesting get their chance. The four main guys from that squad were Willie Dyer, Andy Jackson, Kevin Moon and Stevie McManus and three of them are still here a couple of years later but have never really been given a chance, although Jackson is tipped to start against Thistle on Saturday.

I think I'm right in saying our U19 side this season is very young. For example the left back Danny Wilcox is only 16 so has another three years at this level. We always seem to end up with our sides competing a couple of age groups above where they should be. I don't know why Tommy Campbell decides to go down this route - and that's not a criticism.

[Tranmere Saintee]

Just beat me to it Radders, but from that squad only 2 are actually 19, 3 are 18 and the rest are 16 or 17.

Fairbairn, Barr, Doris, Kerr & Monaghan all acquited themselves well at East Fife against a team that are currently on fire.

[wattie_rojas]

About half of the Dundee team is also able to play in this league next season too. Our coach Gordon Wallace did say that the quality of players tends to go in cycles which was borne out by the fact Dundee's youth team finished mid-table last season. However the lack of players making the step up into Saints 1st team has got to raise doubts as to the system in place there. Same could be said for Dunfermline. In comparison, in recent years the Dundee youth team has produced the likes of Langfield, Soutar, Wilkie, Mair, Linn, Dixon, MacDonald, Robertson and Deasley to mention just a few which shows at least that part of the club has worked well if not some of the other parts.