The Big News This Week From The Arabs ..........

[AthensSaint]

Toast for the boys from the city of jam. 

[HOODLUM65]

Toast for the boys from the city of jam.

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And..............marmalade

[babychunder]

Marmalade was not invented in Dundee; it was around for centuries before that. The name marmelo is Portuguese and the original marmalade was made from Quinces. The first telegraph message was from Sam Morse and it was from Washington not Dundee. I don't know about any manned flight before the Wright brothers, unless some cogie jumping off the Dundee-Errol train is what you mean. Finally Rowland Hill invented the adhesive postage stamp. Fail...

 

Not to my knowledge Rik, but I suspect they were Scottish. I was thinking more of marmalade, telegraph message (help!), longest manned flight before the wright brothers, Dundee to Errol (another foiled escape!)' adhesive postage stamp(a written cry for help no doubt) all Dundee firsts!

[HOODLUM65]

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And..............marmalade

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Keillors of course

[HOODLUM65]

Marmalade was not invented in Dundee; it was around for centuries before that. The name marmelo is Portuguese and the original marmalade was made from Quinces. The first telegraph message was from Sam Morse and it was from Washington not Dundee. I don't know about any manned flight before the Wright brothers, unless some cogie jumping off the Dundee-Errol train is what you mean. Finally Rowland Hill invented the adhesive postage

stamp. Fail...

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It says " India rubber" on my car tyres , but where was my car manufactured ?

[rik2304]

Not to my knowledge Rik, but I suspect they were Scottish. I was thinking more of marmalade, telegraph message (help!), longest manned flight before the wright brothers, Dundee to Errol (another foiled escape!)' adhesive postage stamp(a written cry for help no doubt) all Dundee firsts!

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I shall bow to my learned friend above. Smarms, it sounds like the only thing invented in Dundee is incest 

[Smarmy Arab]

Marmalade was not invented in Dundee; it was around for centuries before that. The name marmelo is Portuguese and the original marmalade was made from Quinces. The first telegraph message was from Sam Morse and it was from Washington not Dundee. I don't know about any manned flight before the Wright brothers, unless some cogie jumping off the Dundee-Errol train is what you mean. Finally Rowland Hill invented the adhesive postage stamp. Fail...

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Oh Chunder, once again you have poor sources!  History is always written by the victors, heritage is a lucrative industry with the USA and the English claiming everythin, but like most things there are disputes……..now assume the usual position whilst I sire you once more……..you love it really!

 

James Bowman Lindsay, experimented with revolutionary communications from 1829 till his death in 1860's, well before Morse, Morse may have patented his invention but the evidence is overwhelming that Lindsay’s proto type was up and running  well before the 1840’s.

 

Sugary fruit mixes may well have been common for centuries, but the commercial production of the product 'Marmalade' began with Keiller 1784, and ‘Dundee Marmalade’ the course cut variety has been copied worldwide. Few would dispute Keiller’s place in the pantheon of hero’s concerning the  history of soft fruit chutneys .

 

The Watson brothers, (still have a distribution centre on riverside Watson and Philip) built pioneering aircraft in the early 20^th Century, eye witness testimony verify they ‘flew’ at the ‘height of farm buildings’ from Invergowrie to Errol, in 1903, several years before the Wright Bros.

 

James Chalmers an inventor and social reformer, distributed letters and papers proposing a uniform payment via an adhesive postage stamp, early in the 1830’s.  This was a period of intense social reform and the campaign for a fair and effective postal service was championed by many of the period including Roland Hill, who has become a legend and who’s legacy is considerable in terms of charity, so who will argue with that?  Not me, but once again there is considerable evidence that the idea was first recorded by Chalmers.

 

 

All up for disputation I accept, but you will not be able to engage in such with a few wiki pages. 

[babychunder]

Marmalade first...surely you won't argue with the OED, one of the best researched repositories of information on the planet. Tell you what, read this one and then concede me I'm right. If you can't or won't do that, I can't be arsed arguing the other ones with you

 

"According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "marmalade" appeared in English in 1480, borrowed from French marmelade which, in turn, came from the Portuguese marmelada. Originally, according to the root of the word, which is marmelo or quince, a preserve made from quinces was intended. Marmelada is a compound of the word marmelo (quince), that derives from Latin melimelum, “honey apple” (Klein’s Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the English Language).[1] According to José Pedro Machado’s “Dicionário Etimológico da Língua Portuguesa” (Etymological Dictionary of the Portuguese Language), the oldest known document where this word is to be found is Gil Vicente’s play Comédia de Rubena, written in 1521:

Temos tanta marmelada
Que minha mãy maa de dar

The Romans learned from the Greeks that quinces slowly cooked with honey would "set" when cool (though they did not know about fruit pectin). Greek melimēlon or "honey fruit"—for most quinces are too astringent to be used without honey, and in Greek "mēlon" or "apple" stands for all globular fruits—was transformed into "marmelo." The Roman cookbook attributed to Apicius gives a recipe for preserving whole quinces with their stems and leaves attached in a bath of honey diluted with defrutum: Roman marmalade.

The extension of "marmalade" in the English language to refer to citrus fruits was made in the 17th century, when citrus first began to be plentiful enough in England for the usage to become common. In some languages of continental Europe a word sharing a root with "marmalade" refers to all gelled fruit conserves, and those derived from citrus fruits merit no special word of their own."

[babychunder]

Just in case you're swithering, here's a link to a website written by a famous food historian Ivan Day. He has an entry in my 2005 Who's Who so don't even think of dissins him as a source...

 

"Ivan has an international reputation for his research on British and European culinary history. As well as a scholar, broadcaster and writer, he is also a gifted professional cook and confectioner. He is noted particularly for his re-creations of meals and table settings. His work has been exhibited in many museums, including the Paul Getty Research Institute, Philadelphia Museum of Art, the Museum of London, Fairfax House, the Bowes Museum and the Rothschild Collection. "

 

http://www.historicfood.com/Marmalade.htm

 

This backs up my previous posts.

[Smarmy Arab]

I concede to the etymological arrgument without dispute, but....course cut orange marmalade was produced first and called marmalade in 1794 by James Keller, only a pedant would try to argue otherwise. Bit like football, ball games are centuries old, if not millennia, but ' association football' with 11 aside, pitches within a regulated yardage of dimensions, and all other regulation began in England the public school system in the mid 19th century.....does that mean England invented football? Or just association football? That is for others to argue,

[HOODLUM65]

I concede to the etymological arrgument without dispute, but....course cut orange marmalade was produced first and called marmalade in 1794 by James Keller, only a pedant would try to argue otherwise. Bit like football, ball games are centuries old, if not millennia, but ' association football' with 11 aside, pitches within a regulated yardage of dimensions, and all other regulation began in England the public school system in the mid 19th century.....does that mean England invented football? Or just association football? That is for others to argue,

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Enjoyed your Marmalade spread over the last few posts ( if you'll pardon the pun)

 

Adds more weight to my earlier Marmalade post. Thanks.

[babychunder]

According to Ivan Day, "One of the earliest printed recipes for a marmalade actually made from oranges was published by the early writer Gervase Markham in 1615". That's nearly two centuries before Keiller first produced it in (I presume) his Dundee slum, as the PSJ song goes. Of course you may want to split hairs over the "course (sic) cut" qualifier you added to qualify your original risible claim.

 

Now I'm away researching the first flight question. I'll post my findings in a few minutes as the library is closing at 5:30.

I concede to the etymological arrgument without dispute, but....course cut orange marmalade was produced first and called marmalade in 1794 by James Keller, only a pedant would try to argue otherwise. Bit like football, ball games are centuries old, if not millennia, but ' association football' with 11 aside, pitches within a regulated yardage of dimensions, and all other regulation began in England the public school system in the mid 19th century.....does that mean England invented football? Or just association football? That is for others to argue,

[babychunder]

OK I found a repository called aerospaceweb, run by a few ex-aeronatical guys who are also aircraft historians. They claim that there are seven people other than the Wrights with a claim to "being the first to conduct a sustained, controlled flight of a manned, powered aircraft". Happily for you, one of these is your cogie hero Preston Watson. They go on to examine his claim, noting that "Local residents recalled witnessing Watson making short flights of an aircraft powered by a single engine between 1903 and 1904, but no one could remember any exact dates. What is known for sure is that Watson flew after the Wrights". NB that the Wrights flew from Kitty Hawk in Dec 1903. They go on to conclude that "Despite the insistence of Watson's fans, however, there is again no solid evidence to support the claim that he flew before the Wrights. Watson himself never even made any such contention, and the documentation that does exist seems to suggest he did not fly earlier than 1905.".

 

I also looked at the microfiche archives of the Royal Aero club. An approach to them was made by Watson's brother in 1953, to get them to recognise Preston's feat. The club rejected his request, claiming that there was no proof and alleging that the flights made in 1903 were with gliders rather than with an engine and that was what the local "witnesses" had seen.

 

The respected "secretscotland" website has this to say. "Errol has been claimed to be the site of the first powered aircraft flight to have taken place in Scotland, in 1903. This story is NOT true, and was retracted by the person who instigated it, the brother of the pilot.

 

The story begins in the summer of 1903, with eyewitness claims that Preston Watson made his first powered aircraft flights at Errol, however there is no substantial evidence to support the claim that Watson flew anything in 1903, and the eyewitness accounts alone cannot be relied on for accuracy or consistency, since it transpires that they were made at least fifty years after 1903.

 

Preston Watson was only 22 years old at the time, and never made such a claim himself. A three page article written by Watson did appear in Flight magazine."

 

Finally, the claim was later discredited by the aviation historian Charles Gibbs-Smith in the book The Aeroplane.

 

He discovered that the person behind the 1903 claim was Preston Watson's brother James, who made the claim 50 years after the supposed flight took place. James Watson would later clear up the issue in an article which was published in the December 1955 issue of the magazine Aeronautics, explaining that the aircraft in question had been an un-powered glider.

 

Based on the above the other seven claims including the Wrights, I can't accept that your man was the first to fly. DYOR

[Smarmy Arab]

Impressive research BC, I bow to your sources, but I have at least established Dundee as the site of aero pioneers, marmalade pioneers and a hotbed of invention, as well as home to the world famous Dundee united.

[rik2304]

Impressive research BC, I bow to your sources, but I have at least established Dundee as the site of aero pioneers, marmalade pioneers and a hotbed of invention, as well as home to the world famous Dundee united.

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Mibee you should drop the s

[babychunder]

Home to Dundee United I doubt not; but world famous.....

 

.....my best pal in Perth is a lifelong Arab. Even he'd be embarassed by that.

 

Impressive research BC, I bow to your sources, but I have at least established Dundee as the site of aero pioneers, marmalade pioneers and a hotbed of invention, as well as home to the world famous Dundee united.

[HOODLUM65]

Home to Dundee United I doubt not; but world famous.....

.....my best pal in Perth is a lifelong Arab. Even he'd be embarassed by that.

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These Aero pioneers , did the serve in the Pioneer Corps?

Apparently to qualify they had a pie in each ear.

Ok. Scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

[Smarmy Arab]

So United are not world famous now?     Now yer getting carried away, there must be limits to you revisionism Chunder!

[babychunder]

Me and my mate Robbie went to the 78 WC. We got a bucket flight to Caracas, Venezuela and then hitch hiked / bus / train to Argentina. I remember being on a train up in the Andes and when the wee laddies in the villages saw our kilts they came running out shouting "Escocia, Escocia, Joe Jordan, Kenny Dalglish, RangersCeltic". Not one of them ever mentioned the world famous Dundee United.

 

Another time in Mauritius, where they are daft on th football pools, a local guy in a pub asked me if I thought Airdrie could get a draw against Plastic Whistle. On questioning what other teams he knew, he mentioned Dundee but not Dundee United.

 

However a Spanish workmate who's a Madrileno knew of Dundee Utd after their European adventures. He said "jou have very big teams in Scocia besides Rangers and Celtic". Who I asked, and he said Dundee United. He couldnt believe it when I told him their average gate was under 10,000.

So United are not world famous now?     Now yer getting carried away, there must be limits to you revisionism Chunder!

[Smarmy Arab]

BC the 78 World Cup was long time ago, and before we forged a European pedigree the envy of many 'bigger' clubs. I too have been around a bit and wherever I have been, if talking to a football fan, the word Dundee is instantly anointed with the beautiful suffix.......UNITED! Remember we were, at one time ranked in Europes top ten, only cheating prevented us from our place in the European cup final.

[babychunder]

Not current but still funny,

 

http://www.thespoof.com/news/sport/93167/dundee-united-help-with-emergency-planning

[garydavidson]

Dundee United to host new world record attempt - from the Metro today-

 

"More than 3,000 people will attend Dundee United's Tannadice stadium in a bid to break the world knitting record. The Monifieth Knitting Group is recruiting an army of needleworkers for the September event. The current record of 3,083 was set by the Women's Institute in England."

[HOODLUM65]

Dundee United to host new world record attempt - from the Metro today-

 

"More than 3,000 people will attend Dundee United's Tannadice stadium in a bid to break the world knitting record. The Monifieth Knitting Group is recruiting an army of needleworkers for the September event. The current record of 3,083 was set by the Women's Institute in England."

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Any truth in the rumour that they are knitting the new Arabs kit?

[Smarmy Arab]

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Any truth in the rumour that they are knitting the new Arabs kit?

 

 

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yet another event at Tannadice of global significance!

[Saticon1]

BC the 78 World Cup was long time ago, and before we forged a European pedigree the envy of many 'bigger' clubs. I too have been around a bit and wherever I have been, if talking to a football fan, the word Dundee is instantly anointed with the beautiful suffix.......UNITED! Remember we were, at one time ranked in Europes top ten, only cheating prevented us from our place in the European cup final.

As far as I see it United are regularly called Dundee, on Sky sports amongst others and Derby fans on forums last week kept saying Russell of Dundee. Must be annoying for arabs. United weren't robbed in the 84 semi final against Roma, Milne missing a sitter and amateurish defending was the cause.