is there really progress?

[john1962]

What are we actually saying here about the "two full seasons"? What are our criteria for measurement of success at this point? Will it be measurable? i.e. promotion or subjective? i.e. progress.

[Guest Nairn Saint]

Obviously there are Gerry Collins type examples of when an appointment has just been wrong and I think Connolly probably fell into that category. Did you have faith in him to improve that side in the summer, BH? Coyle is nothing like those two though and results-wise has done well for us so making any sort of rash decision because of a couple of poor months performance wise would be criminal.

There is quite a difference between raising concerns and calling for the manager's head. I'm sure Owen Coyle will be a very good manager for Saints, given time, but I would be happier to see more tangible signs of progress at this juncture.

[MUZZ]

if you were geoff brown at the start of 2005/2006 season and you were desperate to be promoted after 3 seasons failing to get up, common sense IMO would be to appoint an experienced manager. getting a bit fed up of hearing the 'he's still learning and will make mistakes' routine. how long will this be an acceptable excuse?

[gc7969]

Reading my post from Jan 2006 I do not have to change anything about the comments I made then. Therefore, NO progress has been made in my opinion.

We still lack the basic fundamentals of modern football, pace, creativity, passion and fitness. If we add to those the fact in almost every second half performance we have been out coached by the opposition, I think it is fair that Saints fans are asking searching questions about the set up at McD.

Can anyone truthfully say, they have seen any sign that Coyle is learning from his mistakes? With Sturrock there were signs he was getting something across to the players and we accepted that as we could see progress. Coyle has shown little sign that he has/can address our well documented weaknesses.

I don't want a manager revolving door but I do want to see a team progressively being assembled that shows we could return and stay in the SPL. I do not see that presently.

[Guest Nairn Saint]

Reading my post from Jan 2006 I do not have to change anything about the comments I made then. Therefore, NO progress has been made in my opinion.

We still lack the basic fundamentals of modern football, pace, creativity, passion and fitness. If we add to those the fact in almost every second half performance we have been out coached by the opposition, I think it is fair that Saints fans are asking searching questions about the set up at McD.

Can anyone truthfully say, they have seen any sign that Coyle is learning from his mistakes? With Sturrock there were signs he was getting something across to the players and we accepted that as we could see progress. Coyle has shown little sign that he has/can address our well documented weaknesses.

I don't want a manager revolving door but I do want to see a team progressively being assembled that shows we could return and stay in the SPL. I do not see that presently.

Cheers for that. That post really justifies bringing last years thread forward. You, and the other posters from a year ago, are probably best placed to determine if we have moved on over that time frame.

[Cagey]

I think everyone is voiceing their concerns but don`t think there would be any advantage in calling for Owen`s head right now.

We all have concerns about tactics,constantly picking unfit players,lack of good signings & worries that we will not pick up a player in the window that is going to change things but changing the manager at this stage in the season is not on.

I have consistantly said he should be given to the end of the season.

[Steve Maskrey]

if you were geoff brown at the start of 2005/2006 season and you were desperate to be promoted after 3 seasons failing to get up, common sense IMO would be to appoint an experienced manager. getting a bit fed up of hearing the 'he's still learning and will make mistakes' routine. how long will this be an acceptable excuse?

After the relative failure of our previous two managers to bring any measurable success to the club, or signs of huge improvement, perhaps GB and the board decided to use some forward thinking and decided to go for Coyle because of the potential he has and the respect he has in the game At the time, I don't think there were many experienced managers desperate to come to St.Johnstone or were affordable to us.

[Maradona]

In a word NO.

We still have no style of play, no imagination from midfield,

Spot On !!!

[Guest Mikey17]

Progress?

Is that defined in which context??

Progress for higher league?

Progress for club stability then to improve?

Progress Financially?

This, I think, is a very difficult question to answer. We have progressed in certain areas and not in others. We all must be honest and say we have less "haddies" playing for us now but the league doesn't show that.

Fair enough Rangers were utter mince against us, but we still did beat them at Hunville?

Wait til the end of the season for the conclusion but my opinion is we have and we haven't.

God my arse is sore sitting on the fence LAUGH OUT LOUD

[blueheaven]

Obviously there are Gerry Collins type examples of when an appointment has just been wrong and I think Connolly probably fell into that category. Did you have faith in him to improve that side in the summer, BH?

I didn't have a huge amount of faith in him to improve things, but I was (and still am) of the opinion that he deserved more of a chance to show us whether or not he could.

[SlickDT]

I think alot of people are forgetting we are a first division scottish club. People say we need someone that is fast and has creativity in the midfield. So come up with some names that would come to us? They are all playing at a higher level, with the budget Coyle has he has to try to get the best he can, something IMO he has done. He has made some terrific signings!

People point out we need a right-sided midfielder, something Coyle no doubts knows, but should he settle for a second rate player simply to fill that role?

Rome wasn't built in a day. Coyle no doubt has players/positions that he'd like to change/fill, but that is something that takes timE.

We are behind only a team with a huge budget in the league, we are in the semi's of a national cup (beating two SPL sides on the way) and have a squad that with a couple of changes, could be a very good team.

I have no doubt, Coyle will be a success and will take us into the SPL, given time. I'd rather it took us three or four seasons to build a strong squad capable of doing well in the SPL, than one that comes straight back down.

[john1962]

Excellent Post

[Saintkev]

I didn't have a huge amount of faith in him to improve things, but I was (and still am) of the opinion that he deserved more of a chance to show us whether or not he could.

Even though he had clearly lost the dressing room?

[Steve Maskrey]

Even though he had clearly lost the dressing room?

It wasn't just a case of the players not having faith in him, they couldn't actually understand what he was wanting them to do as he kept contradicting himself when it came to tactics. Perhaps the biggest mistake was bringing him in and not his backroom staff as they clearly worked better as a team

[Saintkev]

Not disagreeing Steve, but Geoff acted bang on time as far as JC was concerned as manager.

[SlickDT]

I remember reading a newspaper weekly blog by Hillcoat (Ithink goalkeeper?) that played under John Connolly. He ripped into him from beggining to end.

Said when Connolly joined QOS he decided that one of the younger lads wouldn't make it and moved him on. A season or so later and they come up against the lad, with his new team. He shows he has improved vastly and Connolly decides he may have been a tad quick before. He signs the boy again and gives him one game, before deciding he was right the first time and tells him he has no future!

Clearly he had/has no people management skills, something that seemed to be heard mumbled around Saints while he was here. I don't think he would of turned Saints around in a million years, unlike Coyle.

[Saintkev]

Been trying to think why I am more optimistic than I was a year ago, and I guess I just am... so yeah, we've improved!

[Kyle]

I think alot of people are forgetting we are a first division scottish club. People say we need someone that is fast and has creativity in the midfield. So come up with some names that would come to us? They are all playing at a higher level, with the budget Coyle has he has to try to get the best he can, something IMO he has done. He has made some terrific signings!

People point out we need a right-sided midfielder, something Coyle no doubts knows, but should he settle for a second rate player simply to fill that role?

Rome wasn't built in a day. Coyle no doubt has players/positions that he'd like to change/fill, but that is something that takes timE.

We are behind only a team with a huge budget in the league, we are in the semi's of a national cup (beating two SPL sides on the way) and have a squad that with a couple of changes, could be a very good team.

I have no doubt, Coyle will be a success and will take us into the SPL, given time. I'd rather it took us three or four seasons to build a strong squad capable of doing well in the SPL, than one that comes straight back down.

Give this man a coconut, because that has to be THE best post ever made on this forum.

Give Coyle time. If it doesn't happen this season, which it still might, it will definitely happen next season.

Although, I would like this window's focus to be bringing in more pace, particularly in the midfield. It can be quite painful to watch sometimes!

[SlickDT]

Although, I would like this window's focus to be bringing in more pace, particularly in the midfield. It can be quite painful to watch sometimes!

Have to agree, but what I think alot of people have this idea that Coyle sits watching the team and assumes his midfield is fine. He has been involved in football for years, he would know a slow midfield that tires, when he see's one!

But as has been said by a few, myself included, he seems to be very shrewd in the market. He wont buy for the sake of filling a position, he waits fot the right man for the job. Why bring someone in that isn't as good as what we already have. If he brings someone in and they underperform he is also quick to let them go and admit his mistake, which is something I like.