Radford 72 Posted October 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Bit of honesty from Owen in his post-match comments: We got a point but it feels like a defeat. There was no fluency about our play and we didn't look good in the second half. It doesn't matter if you are playing against 10 men or seven, if you can't pass from A to B your advantage will be nullified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 I know you were waiting for the "It's difficult to beat ten men" but it often can be, why would so many people involved in the game say it? Because they also say - Im over the moon...To be fair...There are no easy games in International football...A game of two halves. Its difficult to beat 10 men is right up with them all. Its a cliche Kev, used to disguise shortcomings, just like 'well we are joint top of the league'. Thats better than 3rd and hides the truth!! For yourself, Sam and Mainstand, going by your theory, if it is that easy for 10 guys to hold 11, why not play with one less every match???! Let me go back no less than 24 hours to give an example of what should happen against 10 men - Cardiff 4 Wolves 0 -'But the latest scoring spree came only after Wolves were left a man short following Gary Breens sending off midway through the first half.' -'...but once their lad was sent off we were always going to use the extra man' -' The sending off was a big factor in the result...in fact it probably changed the game' I also mentioned in my earler post that Dundee had 10 men for 82 minutes. You can accept being held by 10 men playing out of their skin for maybe the last 25/20, but for virtually a whole game it is not on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintkev Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 It's not a cliche, it can be a fact... it happens in all walks of life... you put someone in a position where they are in a corner, they come out fighting, sometimes the fight is not enough and then you can lose heart... see the Cardiff, Wolves game and many more I'm sure, but on the other hand, there are plenty of times that the fight is enough to do something a bit extra (see Dundeh yesterday and many other examples). I agree though that we came up short yesterday as we could have easily matched their commitment, that's disappointing, but it's not as easy as you would think everytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 It can be both a cliche and a fact Kev. I do know where you are coming from though but im afraid ill never be convinced that over 82 minutes, 11 men should do other than beat 10. Stalemate on this one I think. Next subject please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldmuirton Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Ten men fighting and working hard can only succeed if the eleven men are not motivated to work equally hard- or the 10 men are better players (which was not the case) Our attitude in the second half was rotten. You could see Saints thought they only had to turn up to win Really disappointing and OC has to carry some of the can for the motivation problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chansey Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Our attitude in the second half was rotten. You could see Saints thought they only had to turn up to win Really disappointing and OC has to carry some of the can for the motivation problem. 100% agree, The players have shown they can more than compete with the 'bigger' teams we have played in patches of those matches, but it is OC's job to ensure they show this for longer periods of the game. I dread to think what his half-time team talk was yesterday, as our tempo from the very start of the 2nd half was deadly slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranmere Saintee Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 When Dundeee were in the SPL they played against Celtic at dens and had a player sent of very early on and if memory serves me right they held out for a draw. Both managers said afterwarsd that the 10 men actually hindered both teams. Scotland actually lost out on qualification to the World cup or euro(?) a few years ago because they couldn't beat 10 men. The sky has now turned a very peculiar colour - not only have you and Radford agreed on something today, but I am going to agree with you on this point Time and again a team down to ten men will step up their game due to the forseen injustice (rightly or wrongly) and put in that little bit extra, they will pull back a forward into a defensive midfield role and just stop the other team from playing football. Before anybody says it - I know we don't need any help from the opposition at times to stop playing football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Time and again a team down to ten men will step up their game due to the forseen injustice (rightly or wrongly) and put in that little bit extra, they will pull back a forward into a defensive midfield role and just stop the other team from playing football. Maybe I have it wrong then Tranners...you mean that Dundee sat with 10 men behind the ball and Saints were on top for the remaining 82 minutes, but just couldnt break down a stonewall 10 man defence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford 72 Posted October 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Ok, if it was Clyde or Accies we were playing, I could maybe accept it but the players know how much this game means to the fans so there is no excuse for not matching Dundee's effort and commitment. Before they started spending millions they didn't have, our record against them was so good because our players were always up for the games against them whilst they just saw it as another game. Now, Rae has maybe got them treating it as a derby but we shouldn't have been outfought yesterday... we were though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Alex Rae has spoken of the fact that Saints is a big game for Dundee as we are the closest they get to a local derby - a crowd of over 5,500 is testament to that and we gifted them their point. Down to 10 men for 80-odd minutes, no matter what team in this league it is, should be beaten - especially by one of the so-called "title favourites". This year is a 3 horse race between Gretna, Livi and ourselves and both the others dropping points will not happen very often, if at all again, this season so that type of game is what separates title winners from the also rans (such as last season). Once we scored the opener, it meant that 2nd half Dundee were going to have to attack - this is where we should have been looking to hit them. I would have taken Savo (who was feeling the effects of not training all week) off and replace him with McLaren and told him to run at the defenders. We needed to have someone running from deep at them as the 2 up top wasn't working againts Mann and his fellow thug at the back! All in all, the 2nd half was a waste of time - MacDonald needs games but we need him to be firing in those games (RLE discussion again!!!), and it amazes me we had no pace option used until the last 10 minutes when, arguably, the game was gone. Support was good in number, not necessarily in voice compared to previous Dens trips and for me, it was as if both the fans and players expected to coast the 2nd half - 2 points dropped that may prove crucial towards the end of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StDuncM Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 I agree, the performance doesn't matter in derbies (although we were pony) but our whole attitude was wrong IMO. Playing against 10 men for 85 minutes, we should've been going at them time after time. They left one man up top (Andy bleedin' McLaren) so there wasn't even a need to over-commit. 1-1 was not acceptable today based on what happened in the match. Rubbish!! Better teams than Saints have not been able to beat 10 men. Look at Leeds United this weekend for example! They conceded 2 or 3 when the opposition lost a player. Some games you win and win well, other times its pony, but hell who cares if we are still up there and unbeaten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Rubbish!! Better teams than Saints have not been able to beat 10 men. Look at Leeds United this weekend for example! But the quality of opposition was much better in Leeds case Dunc Boing Boing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broon Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Some games you win and win well, other times its pony, but hell who cares if we are still up there and unbeaten. I think the point that folk are trying to make is we draw too many games to win the league. Ok, maybe we are unbeaten but you can finish the season unbeaten and only get 36 points (which would have relegated us 04/05 season). We have now drawn 4 games this season and we should have won every single one of them. Thats a total of 8 points dropped - we could have almost sown up the league by now. The only reason we are still in touch is Gretna and Livi are average teams. If we work harder this season and start killing off teams we will win the league. Its obvious we can win this league but for that reason its painful to watch us drop all these easy points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 I would have liked OC to have subbed Sheridan for Lawson at half-time, not because he had had a bad game but because he was obviously toiling having been laid out twice! Similarly, Savo was starting to hobble towards the end of the first half and Peason should have come on then. Also, with Mann being such a slug in defence for them, McLaren could have come on a lot earlier and started to run rings round him. Still, hindsight is mankinds greatest gift and, using it myself, I would not have had so much to drink on Saturday night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford 72 Posted October 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 We have now drawn 4 games this season and we should have won every single one of them. Thats a total of 8 points dropped - we could have almost sown up the league by now. I don't agree with that. We could have won the Clyde game at the death through Lawrie and Peaso but they should have had us buried by half-time. The two sitters they missed could have seen us two down after twenty minutes. We should have beaten Accies, I agree but didn't think we merited more than a point against Livi or on Saturday, although I agree we should have won that one in the circumstances. Every team can point to draws they should've turned into three points, we need to start doing it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunblanemike Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 I think the point that folk are trying to make is we draw too many games to win the league. Ok, maybe we are unbeaten but you can finish the season unbeaten and only get 36 points (which would have relegated us 04/05 season). If we had drawn every game I'd suggest 36 points may not result in relegation. All other teams will have scored 1 pt for the draw. Some will have lost in other games so could have had less points than us and got relegated. Pedantry over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broon Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 I don't agree with that. We could have won the Clyde game at the death through Lawrie and Peaso but they should have had us buried by half-time. The two sitters they missed could have seen us two down after twenty minutes. We should have beaten Accies, I agree but didn't think we merited more than a point against Livi or on Saturday, although I agree we should have won that one in the circumstances. Every team can point to draws they should've turned into three points, we need to start doing it though. We had many more chances against Clyde than they had and we were the better team, as in the Hamilton game. We gifted Livi a goal last Saturday and dominated the game without playing well. On Saturday we played agains 10 men for 82 mins. 8 points dropped if you ask me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford 72 Posted October 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 We had many more chances against Clyde than they had and we were the better team, as in the Hamilton game. We gifted Livi a goal last Saturday and dominated the game without playing well. On Saturday we played agains 10 men for 82 mins. 8 points dropped if you ask me! There is no way we should be sitting with 8 wins from 8 games when we've only played well on two or three occasions. Clyde more than matched us on the first day and Livi had much better chances than us last week, albeit didn't force Bryn to make a save. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldPoster Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 If we get a draw against gretna in two weeks we will have 3 points from 9 games, effectivly that is the same as winning one game and losing the other two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 If we get a draw against gretna in two weeks we will have 3 points from 9 games, effectivly that is the same as winning one game and losing the other two The only difference being those 2 of those teams we are playing only get 1 point instead of 3!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldPoster Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 The only difference being those 2 of those teams we are playing only get 1 point instead of 3!!! Lets just jope for a win against milesones minions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford 72 Posted October 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 A draw with Gretna and we'd be on course for 68 points, and 66 wasn't enough last season. Don't want to make too much of it but we've also had Livi, Dundee and Thistle (false position?) away with only Gretna of the top five at home. Depending on your school of thought, if you are someone that doesn't look at it one game at a time, we should be looking at 20 points per quarter IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy Jenkins Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 A draw with Gretna and we'd be on course for 68 points, and 66 wasn't even last season. Don't want to make too much of it but we've also had Livi, Dundee and Thistle (false position?) away with only Gretna of the top five at home. Depending on your school of thought, if you are someone that doesn't look at it one game at a time, we should be looking at 20 points per quarter IMO. Yeah I would of bitten your hand off if you had offered me 3 points from Livi, Dee and Gretna. Although having been at the games I feel we should of had 6 in the bag...Hopefully its a wee fitness thing and the week layoff will let knocks and things settle down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Rave Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Ten men or not, we were miles ahead in the first half and should've demolished them in the second. Too many non performers in the second half, and arguably takin Sheridan off turned the game. Simon was a bit lost and not getting the freedom he did in th first half. Dundee started to boss the midfield,partially due to Lawson bein lightweight. The fact we couldn't string two passes didn't help. The Gretna game scares the shit out of me now. And as for the 'we're still unbeaten' arguement. We could be miles ahead of Livi and co. if we hadn't dropped shitty points like Saturday. Any points we've dropped is down to our poor performance/off day, not any other team bein good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chansey Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 and arguably takin Sheridan off turned the game. Simon was a bit lost and not getting the freedom he did in th first half. Dundee started to boss the midfield,partially due to Lawson bein lightweight. The fact we couldn't string two passes didn't help. Have to disagree from the very start of the second half dundee were all over us, the sheridan sub for lawson, had no effect on our poor performance. The fact that it had no effect is also a disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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