More Talent to OF

[Indicator]

Kirk Broadfoot appears to be the next Rangers 'Cream Off' target and not surprising he's over the moon at the interest expressed in him. Poor Killie, they must be wondering why they bother. How much capacity do Rangers, or Celtic for that matter have to continually mop up anything of above average ability. How many reserve teams do these clubs run and how big are their squads??

The pinnacle of his career

[Calinho]

He plays for St Mirren, not Kilmarnock

[Indicator]

Oops Just caught it on Setanta whilst they were talking about Killie sort of assumed he was one of theirs. Ah well that changes the whole scene then. It disnay matter at all.

[SlickDT]

Although on a club front it is annoying the usual buying up of any competition, but with Walter and Strachan incharge of the Old Firm average Scottish boys seem to be getting a chance (eg-Ian Murray, Charlie Adam, Gavin Rae) gives them some European experience for future involvement with the national team.

[Ronaldo]

The entertainment factor in Scottish football is at a very low ebb.

Rangers and Celtic with their Irish connections are buying more Scottish players because they have less money now but are still so much richer than their competitors. Not all of them will get a game at the old firm and because the competition is weakened their playing in a less competitive league. In some ways if Pressley and Hartley had stayed with Hearts, Kenny Miller, Gary Caldwell, Derek Riordan, Ian Murray and KevinThomson stayed at Hibs, Marc Wilson stayed at Dundee Utd, Mark Brown stayed at Inverness CT, Charlie Adam and Broadfoot stayed at St.Mirren, Nacho Novo and Gavin Rae stayed at Dundee, Kris Boyd stayed at Kilmarnock then the SPL is more marketable to home and worldwide audiences because of its competitivwe nature, and if their playing every week they'd be better for the national side (excluding Novo).

I think the Irish and provincial glory hunters count more though.

[Ronaldo]

If you've never known anything else .......... as they say.

[Chansey]

i heard the fee was going to be £75 000, which is scandelous...not surprised in the slightest tho.

[Ronaldo]

i heard the fee was going to be £75 000, which is scandelous...not surprised in the slightest tho.

remember the problem Dundee had getting a few quid off Rangers at a tribunal for arguably their best player at the time - Nacho Novo.

[Corned Beef]

Would we rather Scottish talent was going to play in England for Championship yo-yo teams?

You can hardly say that its money thats driving Rangers or Celtic to pinch players from other clubs because arguably they could get players of a similar calibre from abroad for no money at all. Then we would be criticising them for having a team full of non Scots. If a players good enough, a bigger team will go for him. When has it been any different?

[Ronaldo]

Would we rather Scottish talent was going to play in England for Championship yo-yo teams?

You can hardly say that its money thats driving Rangers or Celtic to pinch players from other clubs because arguably they could get players of a similar calibre from abroad for no money at all. Then we would be criticising them for having a team full of non Scots. If a players good enough, a bigger team will go for him. When has it been any different?

If they've got so much money why don't they produce their own brilliant youth systems like Ajax or Arsenal rather than being parasites over their competitors. Most sports competition is organised by neutral experts who create competitive situations with proper rules to back it up. With the exception of the Thomson signing there hasn't been a lot of money flowing around, it's all about getting the players cheap out of their contract as it wears down with the temptation of large salaries.

[Corned Beef]

If they've got so much money why don't they produce their own brilliant youth systems like Ajax or Arsenal rather than being parasites over their competitors. Most sports competition is organised by neutral experts who create competitive situations with proper rules to back it up. With the exception of the Thomson signing there hasn't been a lot of money flowing around, it's all about getting the players cheap out of their contract as it wears down with the temptation of large salaries.

Certainly Rangers have made progress on the youth front, i think the majority of Scotlands u-16 squad is made up of Rangers players. Wether or not these players make it through is another point but there has been investment in the youth set ups. Besides the cast offs of these set ups almost always end up playing for other scottish teams, ours included. At minimal cost to us, they spend the money developing them. They don't quite make it, we pick them up on the cheap or on loan for short term benefit. Besides, Arsenals youth set up is just a junior example of what you criticise the OF of doing, they pick out the cream of European (and worldwide) from other clubs. Hardly a home grown player amongst them.

[Ronaldo]

Certainly Rangers have made progress on the youth front, i think the majority of Scotlands u-16 squad is made up of Rangers players. Wether or not these players make it through is another point but there has been investment in the youth set ups. Besides the cast offs of these set ups almost always end up playing for other scottish teams, ours included. At minimal cost to us, they spend the money developing them. They don't quite make it, we pick them up on the cheap or on loan for short term benefit. Besides, Arsenals youth set up is just a junior example of what you criticise the OF of doing, they pick out the cream of European (and worldwide) from other clubs. Hardly a home grown player amongst them.

Arsenal are picking very young players from other clubs for the future by developing basically raw talent, not buying them when they are total stars. There is a differences. So Scottish football gets the cast offs of the old firms poor youth policies while they get the best players from the rest of Scottish football and that is good for everybody.

[Broon]

How nice would it be if Scottish clubs started to stand up to the Old Firm. I mean, if they make a bid turn round and say "player X (yes, its him again) is worth 500k but if Rangers or Celtic want him then its a million - GIRUY!"

[mainstand]

Arsenal are picking very young players from other clubs for the future by developing basically raw talent, not buying them when they are total stars. There is a differences. So Scottish football gets the cast offs of the old firms poor youth policies while they get the best players from the rest of Scottish football and that is good for everybody.

I hear that Walter Smith is planning a revamp of the set up at Ibrox, he feels taht they may well have the best set up as far as facilities are concerned but that they did not have the best coaches. There under 19 team who are sitting near the top of the table hava a management team consisting of Kernaghan, Durrant and Kirkwood, which is obviously helping the boys.

I won't get into a debate with my old pal Ronaldo on this one as there is no chance of convincing him of anything.

[ryangordon86]

Charlie Adam and Broadfoot stayed at St.Mirren

I may be wrong here but was Charlie Adam not a product of the Rangers youth system, out on Loan at St Mirren to gain experience, the same as McGregor was with us?

[Barty1884]

I may be wrong here but was Charlie Adam not a product of the Rangers youth system, out on Loan at St Mirren to gain experience, the same as McGregor was with us?

he was only out on loan, i think ryangordon86 meant that he woud have been playing every week whereas at the OF there is no guarentee, but if he plays to his full ability every week i can't see of any reason why he can't play for rangers week-in, week-out.

[Corned Beef]

Arsenal are picking very young players from other clubs for the future by developing basically raw talent, not buying them when they are total stars. There is a differences. So Scottish football gets the cast offs of the old firms poor youth policies while they get the best players from the rest of Scottish football and that is good for everybody.

Well if we get the players that don't make it but get the years of training in quality facilities with good coaches at no expense to us, is that not benefitial to us? I'd say this happens in most league systems around the world, i doubt every player Ajax has on their youth teams books makes it to the first team. They end up playing for smaller teams. Look at the amount of ex Man-utd players who never quite made for example, Man Utd go out and buy Rooney and Carrick from other English clubs. This is hardly something that can be attributed to the old firm or is a special case for Scotland.

[chopper]

The top players move to the top clubs - in Scotland that means the Old Firm, in England it is Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. To give an example Liverpool have recently had 7 non-league players on trial from the Conference leagues and they are contemplating signing 1 of them.

Would you not rather the OF were redistributing their monies into the Scottish game by signing the likes of Thomson and Broadfoot (and in previous years, Celtic signing Sylla for £750k etc) to allow some clubs to improve their squads with 4 or 5 players for that money, or improve facilities at the ground or at training, or even allowing some of them to stay full time for a couple of years longer than they should? Or would people rather they went and spent money on players such as Seb Rozenthal, Stephane Guivarc'h, Tore Andre Flo (£12m!!!) taking the money out of our game and giving it to other countries who, in turn, improve their squads and facilities with it!

[Ronaldo]

Ryan Gordon is correct Charlie Adam was originally a Rangers player, I was looking at the fact he played every week at St.Mirren.

To Mainstand , Corned Beef and Chopper you are believing that the status quo is a good thing because it's what you know. I am looking at something totally different and would be considered radical although it is the norm in most other sporting competitions around the world. It is that money/revenue and crowds follow competitive sport and drains away from uncomnpetitive sport. This means than somehow you must have star attractions at all the competing clubs and not just two. In the 1950's and 60's if you look at the record books you will see that there were recognisable players at all the top clubs. Even the last great provincial teams we seen in the 1080's of Aberdeen and Dundee Utd had players who stayed there all their lives which in turn gave them the greatest crowds they ever had and of course the memories which are a very important part of sporting entertainment. It's all very transient today - good player, he's gone - good manager, he's gone.

What Scottish football needs to ensure it carries on in this fashion is a gullable consumer, a cloned media who worship the top two and who suggest when players remain at non old firm clubs here's something inherently wrong, the only way to get an international cap is to be employed by an old firm club, to talk the sport up continuously even if it lacks substance (the bizz, celebs et) and finally for the consumer to accept the concept of uncompetitive sport as the norm. It's a very shallow and with limited horizons.

The top players move to the top clubs - in Scotland that means the Old Firm, in England it is Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. To give an example Liverpool have recently had 7 non-league players on trial from the Conference leagues and they are contemplating signing 1 of them.

You are well progarmmed , however the bulk of those not attending don't find this an attractive proposition.

Would you not rather the OF were redistributing their monies into the Scottish game by signing the likes of Thomson and Broadfoot (and in previous years, Celtic signing Sylla for £750k etc) to allow some clubs to improve their squads with 4 or 5 players for that money, or improve facilities at the ground or at training, or even allowing some of them to stay full time for a couple of years longer than they should? Or would people rather they went and spent money on players such as Seb Rozenthal, Stephane Guivarc'h, Tore Andre Flo (£12m!!!) taking the money out of our game and giving it to other countries who, in turn, improve their squads and facilities with it!

To put the boot on the other foot and to be honest does it really matter who the non old firm clubs sell to? We sold Ally McCoist to Sunderland for £400,000 and Calum Davidson to Blackburn Rovers for over £1m. Rangers and elti's urrent policy is not beause of sudden generosity it's beause they don't have the hundred millions of pounds that the Premiership has and they rush to get in first before one of them. Anyway lets be honest the transfer market is not what it used to be because of the Bosman ruling.

Do Celtic and Rangers really pay that much for Scottish players?

Remembering that Celtic made a profit of £18,000,000 over the last year after signings, here is a list of players who were on other Scottish clubs books until recently but have been acquired by the old firm in recen6 years -

Pressley - £0

Paul Hartley - £1,1m

Kenny Miller - £0 (from Wolves)

Gary Caldwell - £0

Derek Riordan - £0

Ian Murray - £0

KevinThomson - £2m

Mark Wilson - £500,000

Mark Brown £0

Nacho Novo - £45,000 (at a tribunal, Dundee paid Raith Rovers £100,000)

Gavin Rae - £250,000

Kris Boyd - £0

We don't know what Kirk Broadfoot (Si.Mirren) and Scott MacDonald (Motherwell) will go for yet but I think that the old firm are not as generous as people make out under the current system of advancing the merits of an uncompetitive sport in order to get the old firm through a couple more rounds in Europe. The latter strategy has failed if you look at the last 30 years but at least we're having one good year.

[SlickDT]

Have to say Ronaldo has a point, facts speak for themself.

[Kaylor88]

Confirmed that rangers hvae stole Broadfoot http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/st_mirren/6415587.stm

[mainstand]

Pressley - £0

Derek Riordan - £0

Mark Brown £0

Kris Boyd - £0

Ronaldo a couple of wee errors in your post there.

Pressley was of course a free agent having been sacked by Hearts.

Riordan cost Celtic £150k

Mark Brown cost Celtic £100k plus

Kris Boys cost Rangers over £400k

[Ronaldo]

Ronaldo a couple of wee errors in your post there.

Pressley was of course a free agent having been sacked by Hearts.

Riordan cost Celtic £150k

Mark Brown cost Celtic £100k plus

Kris Boys cost Rangers over £400k

I know the position with Pressley but even there media influenes encouraged the unrest in Sotland's 3rd team. Your figures may be orrect Mainstand but I still don't think that's a lot of money in comparison to the salaries paid today. I got my figures from Soccerbase -

Derek Riordan - http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=29522

Mark Brown - http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=15131

Kris boyd - http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=24762

[mainstand]

I know the position with Pressley but even there media influenes encouraged the unrest in Sotland's 3rd team. Your figures may be orrect Mainstand but I still don't think that's a lot of money in comparison to the salaries paid today. I got my figures from Soccerbase -

Derek Riordan - http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=29522

Mark Brown - http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=15131

Kris boyd - http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=24762

Agree it's not a lot of money in Comparison to some of the massive sums being talked about in england but these Clubs should not be getting to the point where their prized posessions are nearing the end of their contract and able to negotiate with other Clubs. It is also better they put taht sort of money back into football in Scotland rather than line the pocket of overrated foreigners.

In addition to which these same Clubs have probbaly done exactly the same to other clubs in the Country, Hartley to Hearts for instance was taht not a Bosman? Hibs have taken a lot of boys from the youth set ups at other Clubs and that is without any transfers at all. Hearts I know signed half of Dunfermline;s under 11 squad at the start of the season after they had worked with the boys for a couple of seasons.

[Indicator]

Well if we get the players that don't make it but get the years of training in quality facilities with good coaches at no expense to us, is that not benefitial to us? I'd say this happens in most league systems around the world, i doubt every player Ajax has on their youth teams books makes it to the first team. They end up playing for smaller teams. Look at the amount of ex Man-utd players who never quite made for example, Man Utd go out and buy Rooney and Carrick from other English clubs. This is hardly something that can be attributed to the old firm or is a special case for Scotland.

It's the sheer WEIGHT OF NUMBERS that is the difference FFS. Our provincial clubs can't stand the losses like the English clubs. For a start it's only the odd player that comes from any one English club and often as not he can be replaced almost immediately with one of equal or better ability. Can't you guys see that. The OF are CONTINUALLY picking off the best of the few that are available to our provincial teams. Hibs are better than most at replacing their losses but the drift from Edinburgh to Glasgow is approaching the ridiculous. And there's more to follow.