The Demise Of The Beautiful Game Or Not?

[Ronaldo]

It is now apparent that the current Scottish and European football economies which have developed over the past 30 years has resulted in extremes of weakh which never existed prior to that. Unscrupulous business owners have looked at football clubs as pure money making organizations and less of a community based asset. Can we ever return to an era when the champions of a country could come from any town or city in the country? The simple fact is that Scottish football is less of a competition now than it has ever been. Celtic and Rangers basically use it as a means of getting into Europe for the bigger cash prizes and through this strategy they have reduced or eliminated any competition in the domestic game to that end.

Fans have drifted away from the clubs outside the old firm and this has now been a long term trend. If people understand and accept that we technically donÂ’t have a competition in Scotland apart from a two horse race and now in England a three horse race with Liverpool attempting to make it four with new American investors then what are the solutions and how do we create competition.

If we were starting from scratch and we were serious about creating a sporting competition we may look at various techniques to ensure that competition is a pre-requisite. These techniques are often called leveller techniques or systems and are used in many sports organizations.

THE LEVELLER SYSTEMS

The following are examples of leveller systems in order to create competition -

1. American Football's College Draft

The NFL (the professional American Football competition) has developed what is a called a nationwide college league which is based upon competition between all the colleges and universities in America. Most of these players are identified in their early teens and later awarded scholarships to particular universities/colleges. Panels of experts including previous professional players monitor these young players in what could be considered an the equivalent of an U21 league. When their season ends all these young players are listed on merit in what is known as the 'Draft'. The order of this draft list is based on their merit according to the panel of experts i.e. 1st being the best of the college students.

What happens next may shock the conservative peoples of Europe in that the team with the worst NFL record gets to pick the best player from the college draft and so on until the cycle is finished and then the next cycle starts i.e. once best team (normally the Super Bowl champions) has chosen the 32nd best player, the worst team then picks the 33rd best player..

Why? What is the logic behind this procedure? Answer: Competition. Reason: The Americans believe logically that greater competition brings out greater crowds and greater TV revenue for sport from all the participating teams/regions around the nation and not just a few teams thereby creating maximum wealth while preventing cash flow atrophy (weak cash circulation).

2. Salary Caps

In professional sports, a salary cap (often called a wage cap) is a limit on the amount of money a team can spend on player salaries, either as a per-player limit or a total limit for the team's squad (or both). Several sports leagues have made salary caps mandatory, both as a method of keeping overall costs down, and in order to balance the league so a wealthy team cannot become dominant simply by buying all the top players. Salary caps are often the major issue in negotiations between management and players' unions.

Salary caps are used by major sports leagues around the world -

North American sports leagues: the National Hockey League, National Football League and the National Basketball Association and minor leagues in various sports. In the UK the top-level leagues in both rugby codes — the Guinness Premiership in rugby union and the Super League in rugby league — have salary caps. Recently, several European football leagues have also discussed introducing salary caps. In Australia, the Australian Football League, National Rugby League and A-League Soccer all include salary cap provisions.

3. The Shared Gate System

From 1870 up until the late 1970's British football encouraged the cash flow of all the teams competing in a league structure. This meant that if you qualified through merit to compete in a league you had to account for your gate receipts and give 50% to your opponents after deducting administration expenses (normally a percentage) and resulted in something like a 60/40 split. In financial terms this brought up the finances of the poorest teams and reduced marginally the finances of the richest teams. Some say that the reduction at the top end was around 20% to 80% because the top winning team always took at least one of the largest fan bases away from home also. This would mean that Celtic’s recent £18m profit would probably have been £14.4m if the system still operated today and most people would regard that as still quite decent.

In addition, this marginal increase in finance for the poorer teams meant that they could evolve intricate scouting systems, often impressive youth systems and/or retain some star players. Examples of the latter were the Hibs 'Famous Five', Dundee of the early 60's who became Scottish champions, Fulham and Burnley's famous youth systems in the early 60's, Blackpool's major success in retaining top players such as Stanley Mathews etc. The fact that these players did not receive the level of salary that they might have was less to do with that system but more to do with the lack of sponsorship, tv money and a culture of moderate pay by club employers. That started to change in the 60Â’s with highly paid players appearing such as George Best and of course the shared gate system was in operation.

This compares favorably to the static, bland and tedious order that is today's football where it's purely money for those that already have the money that counts and the chance of a well structured, well coached and managed club achieving the ultimate goal are gone forever. This is because if there were signs of anything brilliant occurring from a medium to small club then that club's assets in the form of managers or players will be poached for very little compensation (if any) by predator averagely managed richer clubs.

4. Spain - The Copa del Rey

When the La Liga teams enter and the draw is fully made each teams league position is compared to their opponents and the lower ranked team is given the home tie. This occurs all the way to the semi-final. Compare that to our cup competition where a director of one of the small clubs is ecstatic when he gets an away tie at Rangers or Celtic. There is no football competition in that thought process, simply the thought of money and lambs to the slaughter.

THE EXCUSES

I always hear that in today's world there are other things competing with football and that is the main reason for today's lower attendances. The truth is that in the last 40 years there have always been alternatives to football. In Perth in the 70's we had four cinemas where we only have one now and which were all thriving, there were films on TV on Saturday afternoons which Ewan McGregor openly admits watching when he was young, there was sport on TV on programmes such as Grandstand or ITV World Of Sport including Wresting/Rugby League and Union/Horse Racing/Ice Hockey/Basketball/Football Scores and reports, there was radio football coverage, Swimming Baths, Cycling, Town Centre shopping, probably more kids playing and leisure facilities both in and out of the house, Off Licenses, day car runs/town visits and travelling etc. Whenever you hear there is more competition for football it is an excuse for failure since football represents potentially the greatest outdoor sporting entertainment event in the world and definitely in our country. Football should pull massive crowds everywhere and would do if it were run as a proper economy and a true competition rather than a group of self interested small businesses replicating a money equivalent of the food chain. It has become no more interesting than watching the stock market and should maybe be shown as part of the Bloomberg channel or the BBC Money Programme since even a huge amount of the discussions on football relate to the board room, agents, accounts, salaries, contract negotiations, stadium enhancements, bonuses, part-time/full-time, share issues, foreign investors, bank dealings etc.

Have a look at these two seasons from our particular club's football history of home attendances.

Season 1 -

St Johnstone 0-0 Kilmarnock 15-08-1998 6210

St Johnstone 1-1 Dunfermline 12-09-1998 5997

St Johnstone 2-0 Aberdeen 19-09-1998 5814

St Johnstone 1-3 Dundee Utd 26-09-1998 6665

St Johnstone 5-0 Motherwell 17-10-1998 4062

St Johnstone 0-7 Rangers 08-11-1998 9636

St Johnstone 2-1 Celtic 14-11-1998 9762

St Johnstone 1-1 Hearts 09-12-1998 4808

St Johnstone 1-1 Dundee 12-12-1998 6033

St Johnstone 1-1 Dunfermline 29-12-1998 6070

St Johnstone 4-1 Aberdeen 02-01-1999 8971

St Johnstone 1-0 Dundee Utd 06-02-1999 5771

St Johnstone 0-1 Kilmarnock 13-03-1999 5461

St Johnstone 3-1 Rangers 04-04-1999 9740

St Johnstone 0-0 Hearts 17-04-1999 6146

St Johnstone 1-0 Celtic 24-04-1999 10379

St Johnstone 0-0 Motherwell 08-05-1999 4599

St Johnstone 1-0 Dundee 23/05/1999 10575

Total 126699

Average 7039

Median 6108

Season 2

St.Johnstone 1-4 Partick Thistle 03/08/1969 6200

St.Johnstone 0-0 Hearts 06/09/1969 9200

St.Johnstone 3-1 Aberdeen 20/09/1969 9400

St.Johnstone 1-3 Rangers 04/10/1969 20000

St.Johnstone 4-0 Morton 18/10/1969 6000

St.Johnstone 1-0 Hibernian 01/11/1969 8400

St.Johnstone 1-4 Dundee 15/11/1969 6000

St.Johnstone 2-0 Ayr Utd 10/12/1969 3800

St.Johnstone 1-4 Celtic 13/12/1969 15500

St.Johnstone 1-0 Dunfermline 27/12/1969 5500

St.Johnstone 1-0 Dundee Utd 01/01/1970 9000

St.Johnstone 4-3 Motherwell 17-Jan 4200

St.Johnstone 3-2 Clyde 29/02/1970 4500

St.Johnstone 1-1 Airdrie 25/03/1970 3000

St.Johnstone 1-1 Raith Rovers 28/03/1970 3500

St.Johnstone 2-3 St.Mirren 13/04/1970 2700

St.Johnstone 1-1 Kilmarnock 18/05/1970 2700

Total 119600

Average 7035

Median 6000

The season's crowds are very similar in total and you would think amazingly consistent. However the truth is that Season 1 represents a season in which St.Johnstone were 3rd in Scotland, were in the Scottish Cup Semi-final and were also in the League Cup Final and probably our most successful season ever. Season 2 on the other hand represents a season where St.Johnstone were 13th in a top league of 18.

Then you get the excuses from the niche rebels who are secretly conformists. That is, there are a group of media and other organisation's people in the game who outwardly imply they are against the dominance of the wealthy teams but genuinely don't want any change because they are either being remunerated via or have their egos boosted within the profession. Comments such as these come to mind -

"My club would do the same as the old firm if we had the money"

"You know it's good to get it up them but I think the old firm game's great"

"I think everybody should support the old firm in Europe"

"I think it's great for a wee team to reach the Cup Final but I think it's only fair that the old firm get 80% of the tickets because their fans go every week"

That last comment is the classic "we're not going anywhere in Scotland" comment which says that even after passing all the wealth to the richest teams who in turn attract the largest customer base, which in turn makes them even more wealthy, we give these customers 80% of the tickets and deny the small club's potential customer base a minimal amount. There is a poverty trap in football too.

CONCLUSION: SCOTCH SOCCER HAS FOLLOWED A THATCHER-ITE APPROACH.

While America and our ancestors knew that intense competition was what created maximum revenue in economic terms and greatest interest in social terms, the current generation of Scots and of course Europeans believe that any wealth available should go to the wealthiest clubs and that the league positions should quite rightly reflect the comparative wealth positions rather than the skills of the football management at the various clubs.

The current organisation of football attracts individuals or customers to the wealthier teams from all the regions who let's face it are not winners in their own personal lives. This may make themselves or their egos feel bigger resulting in some sort of social benefit but the bottom line is that the local teams suffer in terms of potential customers. As a result small to medium financed teams lose customers both to the wealthier teams and to other competing interests forever and we therefore reduce the overall size of the football economy causing it to move to extremes - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It's ironic that those attracted to these wealthy teams are in fact the most likely people to feel aggrieved if the same economic philosophy or system was used in the total economy as a whole. That is, I can't imagine those working in the Clydeside ship yards or living in the Easterhouse housing estate to enthuse over a society where less money is redistributed and the wealthy retain the wealth and get richer. In that kind of economy Perth would be fine since it could take the corporation tax locally from its major worldwide companies e.g. Scottish and Southern Energy, Stagecoach, Norwich UnionÂ’s General Accident etc. and use that to pay for the local government and local health expenditure for its 50,000 population rather than putting it into the Exchequer where it is redistributed to a very intensive tax funded Glasgow.

Thatcher could not have done it better but it seems very odd that an organised sport should in fact create a less competitive environment for the paying customers instead of the opposite. This kind of environment, one that does not care for true competition, has pampered to the greedy while requiring a docile accepting Scottish footballing public to continue attending as the majority nationwide have sought other pursuits. In my own limited local survey and I'm sure it would be replicated nationwide I've found that approximately 70% of the very knowledgeable and avid football fans in a wide age range have no interest in attending a local football match no matter how successful their team is. This attitude has taken years but is quite hardened.

When you watch a live game on television you will notice that this game will normally be chosen from games with the largest attendances for atmosphere and marketing. That is fine and understandable but as we have diminished the degree of competition domestically the range of teams which are likely to be shown has also diminished. The extremes of wealth now mean that very few teams outside the top six are shown live and even then that will probably be against the old firm. The BBC remit by definition is slightly different from the satellite channels because they are supposed to have a duty to cover sport nationwide since their revenue comes from the total population and not subscribers although they also tend to concentrate far too much on the top two.

The concept of money following money is further exaggerated with the loss of any adequate compensation scheme given to local clubs for developing young players under the Bosman Ruling. I don't see any point in St.Johnstone for example specifically investing in a decent sized youth system since the rewards of any successful setup to the club are not clearly identifiable. How many players have we seen leave other competing clubs to join the old firm through enticement of huge salaries and media pressure to unsettle the players? It has become a joke which affects the whole of Scottish football domestically since by eliminating the competition it also makes the top teams less than competitive abroad. They are not getting the degree of competition necessary week in week out and then turn up in a European game and suffer. I can count on one hand the number of times both old firm teams were still in Europe after Christmas in the last thirty years. This season is truly memorable.

Here is the trend of Scottish championships over successive twenty year periods -

1947 to 1966: Rangers 10, Hibs 3, Celtic 2, Hearts 2, Aberdeen 1, Dundee 1 and Kilmarnock 1.

1967 to 1986: Celtic 13, Rangers 3, Aberdeen 3 and Dundee Utd 1.

1987 to 2006:.Rangers 14 Celtic 6.

You can see that money has gone to money as time has gone on and that what we call competition today is a con since it has been diluted and become a boring product.

The last 20 years in England by comparison is -

Manchester Utd 8, Arsenal 5, Chelsea 2, Liverpool 2, Blackburn Rovers 1, Everton 1 and Leeds Utd 1.

England on the face of it looks much healthier in terms of competition and is but even there some people are becoming uneasy too with only Manchester Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal winning the championship in the last 10 years. The English Premiership has benefited from SKY television and the resulting finance this has produced for its 20 participants the ability to acquire quality players worldwide through large salary deals which in turn has maximised crowds and income. However there are doubters of this strategy with regards to the production of young English players and the resulting mess if SKY one day pulls out or has to reduce its sponsorship money in a competitive market. However the key point is that Scottish football with its smaller potential customer base was foolish to attempt to copy the English model when it had the SKY deal due mainly because of the rivalry or jealousy of England primarily from Rangers and Celtic. The fact is that the best way to market Scottish football is to make it competitive by using various forms of levelling systems. The main reason that SKY pulled out was because Scottish football was regarded as a poor product in competitive terms. SKY would actually prefer to invest in the Scotland national team games since they are by definition more competitive games with no certainty or predictable element.

Ask yourself this question -

When you were all young kids did you go to the park and have all the best players in one side and all the worst on the other or did you instead have two individuals pick sides one at a time? If so why?

[Dev]

Fantastic post. I struggle to think of anyone who could possibly disagree with any of that, except for those at the top level of the gravy train - Victoria Beckham perhaps.

[Dooj]

So what leveller system are you proposing?

[dunblanemike]

excellent stuff Ronnie. One minor quibble - your conclusion headline - it is not Scotch Football... Scotch is a drink .....apparently

[chopper]

One thing I would quibble with is the draft system Ronnie, otherwise one of the top posts I have seen on Fitba Chat!

The draft system allows teams to select the best players to try and agree terms with - it does not guarantee that the player will be playing for that club. A good example was where Eli Manning (quarterback of the Indianapolis Colts) was actually drafted by the San Diego Chargers, who then instead of agreeing terms, traded him to the Colts within an hour of drafting him, traded him to the Colts for another 2 draft picks (or something similar) for which they drafted their current quarterback, Philip Rivers.

The draft system is also open to manipulation in other ways, whereby there is no "transfer market" as such but a "trading system" where players are traded between teams or for these "draft picks" so one club, who are doing well enough to be in places 20-30 in the draft system, actually get 2 or 3 "first-round picks" early on to improve their team by trading some of their players who have done their job for the team but are coveted by others for these picks.

The current transfer market is satisfactory in that clubs know the rules and what needs to be done, although the loan system (especially in the English football league) can be abused by so many teams for the short-term gain that football chairmen have become obsessed with. Players wages is what needs to be controlled, such as the salary cap. Another example in British sport is in rugby league's Super League, where clubs are actually docked points if they spend more than a set percentage of their turnover for the year on wages (I think it may be 75% but someone can correct me on that).

[Ronaldo]

So what leveller system are you proposing?

Well Dooj I just introdiuced thse systems and asked the general question 'Why?' I think we have been numbed into accepting or at least forgetting that attendances at football is about watching a football competition between football teams from all the communuities and not just a money market competition.

I think Michel Platini is the man to do something but I'm sure salary caps may be on his mind. I think that should be looked at because we want football to flourish in all the areas of the country and not just exist.

excellent stuff Ronnie. One minor quibble - your conclusion headline - it is not Scotch Football... Scotch is a drink .....apparently

Yes Mike it was just a technique to heighten the emotion when considering the failure of our football league as history has gone on. Sometimes it's useful to have a go at ourselves to increase the debate 'to see oursels as others see us'. I want Scotland to be the best.

One thing I would quibble with is the draft system Ronnie, otherwise one of the top posts I have seen on Fitba Chat!

The draft system allows teams to select the best players to try and agree terms with - it does not guarantee that the player will be playing for that club. A good example was where Eli Manning (quarterback of the Indianapolis Colts) was actually drafted by the San Diego Chargers, who then instead of agreeing terms, traded him to the Colts within an hour of drafting him, traded him to the Colts for another 2 draft picks (or something similar) for which they drafted their current quarterback, Philip Rivers.

The draft system is also open to manipulation in other ways, whereby there is no "transfer market" as such but a "trading system" where players are traded between teams or for these "draft picks" so one club, who are doing well enough to be in places 20-30 in the draft system, actually get 2 or 3 "first-round picks" early on to improve their team by trading some of their players who have done their job for the team but are coveted by others for these picks.

The current transfer market is satisfactory in that clubs know the rules and what needs to be done, although the loan system (especially in the English football league) can be abused by so many teams for the short-term gain that football chairmen have become obsessed with. Players wages is what needs to be controlled, such as the salary cap. Another example in British sport is in rugby league's Super League, where clubs are actually docked points if they spend more than a set percentage of their turnover for the year on wages (I think it may be 75% but someone can correct me on that).

Chopper although we could never introduce such a system into football because the infrastructure is not there you are however correct to say that the 'Draft' system does end up as a form of trading system but nobody can argue that it is not a system that is in existence to maintain competition. For example let's say that a draft system existed in Scotland and there were 18 clubs in the elite professional football league. Our 18th rated team would be entitled to choose the best player in the college draft e.g. say a Larsson or Dalgleish. Then Celtic want him and the 18th team's coaching staff know they need to fill three key positions in order to improve the overall team and so they attempt to negotiate with Celtic for the swap of three experienced players for these positions. As you said many of these agreements are made well before the actual draft based on what the teams have said they are choosing. Unlike American football we had a transfer system which was fine for years until the Bosman ruling. Clubs like Hibs for example can develop very talented young players only for the extremely wealthy teams in an uncompetitive league to tempt them away simply by offering them obscene salaries to often sit on their benches and not necessarily any compensation in the form of transfer money. That's not good for the Scotland national side far less real competition.

I agree with you on salary caps on players and total club wages. Each year at the end of a season the employers (the clubs) and the players union should set these limits for the next season.

[slf]

ronaldo top post mate and very interesting.

I was interested too see the comparisons in attendences for saints at home over two different seasons.Dont know what conclusions to make on them .I have always personally hated playing the same clubs twice at home in the league.I always preffered like its still in England playing someone the once.The present system i believe is money driven ie play the old firm twice each at home.But there was not too much difference in average gate in your two comparisons between playing someone once in the league or twice.

[Saintkev]

Agreed, very interesting post... one wee thing though... I have used the football is getting betaby its competition (i.e. cinema etc) however I think this is purely down to price, I'm sure many more would choose the football if they brought the price in-line with other entertainments.

[living the vida loco]

If we were to start from scratch in setting up a "Premiere League" in Scotland - who would we have ( looking at population/catchment)?

One team from the Highlands? - Inverness

One team from the Grampian area? - Aberdeen

One team from Tayside? - Dundee United

One team from central region? - Falkirk :x

One team from Fife? - Dunfermline

Two teams from Edinburgh? - Hibs and Hearts

One team from west of Glasgow? the other Saints

One team from Lanarkshire? - Motherwell

Two teams from Glasgow? - Rangers and Celtic

One team from Ayrshire? - Killie

Oh - thats what we have!!!!

Maybe we could go for a 14 team league??

Maybe a second team from Lanarkshire? - Hamilton or Airdrie?

One team from the south - Gretna or QOS

OK a 16 team league

a second Tayside team? Saints of course (a better market than a second Dundee team?)

a West Lothian team? Livie

[Ronaldo]

If we were to start from scratch in setting up a "Premiere League" in Scotland - who would we have ( looking at .....

This thread is about competition not football organised around population and the club with the biggest population gets all the money and then they buy the best players off the teams that don't have the moiney and rhen competition is stifled and then legally we don't have a competition worth the bulk of the population getting out their houses to go and watch..

I agree that's what the business people and media people look at but that's not what my post was about. As you have stated the current system is about money following population. My post was about true competition based around and the concept of money flowing through the whole game as a consequence of well managed and coached clubs competing with more finance at their disposal. This is what we had when we had several different champions and of course won European championships. What you have outlined is exactly what is wrong and the way we have gone over a number of years. it's a stagnant approach. It doesn't matter if there are teams represented from all the regions, it's whether they are truly or potentially involved in a competition and not just bit parts for the wealthy clubs who may tempt their players away as required. That's banana republic stuff. Other countries, other sports and our ancestors are/were much more aware of what competition is.

Anybody could organise teams that fit neatly into population areas and then let these teams feed the two wealthy teams but that's not likely to be productive in football terms, and that's exactly where we are. It's far too stage managed and not about letting the smaller to medium sized clubs seriously compete with greater cash flow.

[mainstand]

This thread is about competition not football organised around population and the club with the biggest population gets all the money and then they buy the best players off the teams that don't have the moiney and rhen competition is stifled and then legally we don't have a competition worth the bulk of the population getting out their houses to go and watch..

But COMPETITION is surely set around supply and demand, there are the best players in the country and they are demanded by the top Clubs thus pushing their price up. That is why you have the top Clubs buying the best players something that has happened for many many years.

I see what you are saying but I don't think it is competition you are promoting it is more an equalisation of standards which is not something you are going to get and to be honest I don't think it's always been there in years gone by.

[Indicator]

But COMPETITION is surely set around supply and demand, there are the best players in the country and they are demanded by the top Clubs thus pushing their price up. That is why you have the top Clubs buying the best players something that has happened for many many years.

I see what you are saying but I don't think it is competition you are promoting it is more an equalisation of standards which is not something you are going to get and to be honest I don't think it's always been there in years gone by.

Supply and Demand - Oh no not that Old Chestnut. Now there's a financeer's statement if ever I heard one. It would be fine if every club in Scotland had the benefit of a level playing field such as being allotted the same number of supporters. The same financial clout. A similar attraction to the OF that would entice the best players to stay with them and not have their playing pools continually decimated by players heading to the west coast.

That's just pie in the sky - of course.

I gather you don't see any need for change you have taken the same stance you always take - but the OF exist therefore they are.... You are quite happy with the status quo. Everything is ok as all the best players end up in Glasgow. The best players are not happy with their lot playing for lesser clubs. The best players see the pinnacle of their carreers as playing for one or other of the big two.

The few voices, such as Ronaldo's, have no chance of changing anything as the many voices who demand not to have their weekends spoiled by their fav team losing football matches therefore they will shell out whatever finances it take to ensure that the playing field stays just as it is.

[mainstand]

[That's just pie in the sky - of course.

quote]

That is the just what this topic is!!

As far as me taking my usual stance I believe that players will go to wherever they receive the best deals and if that's with the OF then so be it. I personally don't have as much a gripe against that as a lot do on here.

I don't however think that this is something new. When Celtic won the 9-in-a-row in the sixties and early seventies did they not have a number of players athat they had signed from other Scottish Clubs? Football is like any other business if Tescos want the best manager then they may poach someone from Sainsbury or Asda and god knows they will be a lot more attractive to joe bloggs who works for a store in the High Street, it's a fact of life.

I also think that it is good for the International team that players are playing at a good level in European competitions at Celtic and Rangers. Pretty similar to the seventies when our best players were being taken to England to paly for Liverpool and Leeds etc.

[Saintkev]

So is Scottish Football in a good way Mainstand?

[ryangordon86]

excellent stuff Ronnie. One minor quibble - your conclusion headline - it is not Scotch Football... Scotch is a drink .....apparently

LAUGH OUT LOUD I was just about to post this!

[mainstand]

So is Scottish Football in a good way Mainstand?

NO and I never said that in any of the posts. What I did say is taht you are always going to have inequality and I dodn't think there has been a time when we have not had this.

It woudl be great if every Club in the Country was getting 30,000 crowds every game.

[dunblanemike]

Ronnie and the rest of you.

There's a very interesting talk coming up at Stirling uni on the David and Goliath effect in American sport and how one very small club has managed to compete at the highest level for 10 years.

http://www.commanddev.stir.ac.uk/news/news_stories/index.php#Two

this jumps to the news page which does change over time.

[Saintkev]

NO and I never said that in any of the posts. What I did say is taht you are always going to have inequality and I dodn't think there has been a time when we have not had this.

It woudl be great if every Club in the Country was getting 30,000 crowds every game.

I didn't think you would... was just confirming that... therefore do you not think we should do something to bridge the inequality?

[mainstand]

I didn't think you would... was just confirming that... therefore do you not think we should do something to bridge the inequality?

I can't see how you can. It's a bit like trying to bridge the gap between the wee grocers on the end of the street and the supermarkets.

If you supported a top Club would you want it??

[Saintkev]

I can't see how you can. It's a bit like trying to bridge the gap between the wee grocers on the end of the street and the supermarkets.

If you supported a top Club would you want it??

If I had my current mindset, of course I would... I have played in games when my team has won 7-0 etc, and it's not nearly as enjoyable as a 3-2 win. I'd like to think, although I'd enjoy the success, i'd enjoy it a lot more if I knew we had to earn it rather than just show up!

[Ronaldo]

But COMPETITION is surely set around supply and demand, there are the best players in the country and they are demanded by the top Clubs thus pushing their price up. That is why you have the top Clubs buying the best players something that has happened for many many years. .

No Mainstand COMPETITION in organised sporting terms is about many competing teams competing for the ultimate prize in a way that does not severely disadvantages the majority of teams at the expense of giving an advantage to a couple of teams and that therefore maximises revenue throughout the whole sport with each club maximising their potential fan/customer base and not just two. It is NOT equalisation!

You're talking about business competition where there is a free market and where competing organisations compete for customers based on price and quality which is supposed to have a downward pressure on price mechanism. Monopolies are banned under such systems by the way because that has an upward pressure on prices.

Thesde SPL business owners need you and your type.

[Ronaldo]

Ronnie and the rest of you.

There's a very interesting talk coming up at Stirling uni on the David and Goliath effect in American sport and how one very small club has managed to compete at the highest level for 10 years.

http://www.commanddev.stir.ac.uk/news/news_stories/index.php#Two

this jumps to the news page which does change over time.

Mike, it's good to read my old university is still interesting. Good article, thanks for pointing that out.

[dunblanemike]

Mike, it's good to read my old university is still interesting. Good article, thanks for pointing that out.

of course it is interesting..... I make it so, I work there!!

8)

[mainstand]

Thesde SPL business owners need you and your type.

Ronaldo Thanks for the eonomics lecture I won't ask you to explain what you class as "My type" mainly because it will be about a 10,000 word essay.

[Ronaldo]

of course it is interesting..... I make it so, I work there!!

8)

I didn't know that Mike. 8)

When I was about to start there at the age of 17 one of the halls of residence wasn't ready so I stayed with a family in Dunblane. I used to walk down the hill past the Cathedral early in the morning every day and I remember it was nice in the mist. I got the bus at a place past the main street between the two hotels/bars and through Bridge of Allan to the entrance at the University.

I miss Stirling University and think of it often. I went for an interview there for a database design job (Oracle) and 10 people interviewed me. I received a phone call the next day saying that they were going to offer me the job. Unfortunately my ex-wife changed her mind and didn't want to move from the location we were in up north, so I didn't take it.

Good site I'll keep a look out.