1 win... accepatble or not?

[Dave H]

1 win from 7 games. Last season is a far far distant memory and looking at this season are we under achieving? or is the fact we are a distinctly average team and reckon this is representative.

No matter what, 1 win from 7 is in my opinion should result in a fine to all staff associated with the club. Failing to hold onto a lead at Greenock, typifies the season so far, and shows no signs that we will be anywhere near challenging the league title.

Pressure is on at Dunfermline with 1 win in 7, why not here! Im not looking forward to Accies coming to town. However will be good to test their character if they seek promotion.. however the test is on our character to get a win, anything but a saints win is yet another weekend gone with no gain on the leaders.... seems we all have been here before, catch up on leaders and failing to gain when leaders slip up. This weekend is the first weekend we have failed to gain some points, and sure will not be the last.

Highly disappointing start to what should have been so much better.

[StDuncM]

We will see. The fat lady aint singing yet!

[Steve Maskrey]

You could also say that we've only lost once but it depends on whether the glass is half full or half empty. Judging by posts and threads so far this season, many people will go for the latter. The thing we can be frustrated about is the number of draws, which effectively ruined our title chances last season. At the same time, our performances haven't been at the level we've been expecting so maybe its not too bad a start then?

The next two games are crucial to continue our rise up the table and, certainly next week, to try and reduce the gap on the leaders. As Dunc says, there's still a long way to go and we will be looking to improve our results in the next round of matches. The team are showing signs of gelling and a little bit of confidence so I would say there's a lot to look forward to

[andrew]

Acceptable or otherwise, it's what we've got, and probably what we deserve. I said Clyde weren't the worst team in this league after they beat us, and now they've beaten Dunfermline as well. Look at Albion holding Dundee. Any side can surprise any other. Let's hope we learn the lessons from what is behind us, cut out the draws, and go on to put together a winning run which gives us a chance at challenging for promotion.

[SingaporeSaint]

Hopefully we do not leave the improvement too late like last season !

[mainstand]

They say taht if you win the home game and draw the away matches you won't be far away. So far we have got draws at QoS, Dunfermline, Morton and lost at Clyde all away matches the big disappointment is obviously the dropping of 2 points against Stirling Albion, drawing with Dundee was also disappointing but not as bad.

2 wins to end the quarter with and things won't be looking as gloomy!

[soulfulsaint]

I am a fully-paid up optimist but no - its not acceptable. We have a decent squad, players who know the course, and a management team who by and large have their team. We have failed to convert draws into wins and in pop music terms may have hit second-album syndrome. Not acceptable. Think we will turn it round and I have high hopes that in four months time when it starts to really matter, things will look very different. But in short answer is not.

[Radford 72]

I think it's important not to lose sight of the impact injuries have had on our season. Hamilton have had 10 players start at least 6 of their 7 games. Dundee have had 9 out of 10 outfield players do the same. Only Main, McInnes, McManus and Sheerin have started every game for us and no one has missed just one game. We've used 22 players in the league already. It's not just the fact we are missing players though, it's the fact we're missing the spine of our team in James, Hardie, Milne and MacDonald, who would all start if they were fully fit. Take McLaughlin, Neil, Offiong and Gilhaney out of Accies and how would they do? I bet you they wouldn't have dropped only a couple of points.

On Saturday, only three of our side that started against Motherwell in the Scottish Cup were involved. When you have that sort of disruption and turn around in players, it's obviously going to have an impact.

Like Steve says, you can be glass half-full or half-empty and we've lost only 1 of 10 games over 90 minutes, the same number as Dundee and Accies and that is without a handful of our key players. When we get them back it's logical that things will pick up as we'll be a better side for it.

[Simon Quinlank]

I know there's a long way to go, but what annoys me is that if we pick up now and go on a run of results, only to miss out on promotion by a point or two again, it will be our start to the season that is to blame. Every result counts, as we found out to our cost last season, so people shouldn't be criticised for highlighting our present form. What will be even worse is if we end up in exactly the same situation again next season, with yet another poor start to the season after narrowly missing out, and people again saying "oh it doesn't matter, there's a long way to go, etc". I think it does matter.

[wee john]

I think it's important not to lose sight of the impact injuries have had on our season. Hamilton have had 10 players start at least 6 of their 7 games. Dundee have had 9 out of 10 outfield players do the same. Only Main, McInnes, McManus and Sheerin have started every game for us and no one has missed just one game. We've used 22 players in the league already. It's not just the fact we are missing players though, it's the fact we're missing the spine of our team in James, Hardie, Milne and MacDonald, who would all start if they were fully fit. Take McLaughlin, Neil, Offiong and Gilhaney out of Accies and how would they do? I bet you they wouldn't have dropped only a couple of points.

On Saturday, only three of our side that started against Motherwell in the Scottish Cup were involved. When you have that sort of disruption and turn around in players, it's obviously going to have an impact.

Like Steve says, you can be glass half-full or half-empty and we've lost only 1 of 10 games over 90 minutes, the same number as Dundee and Accies and that is without a handful of our key players. When we get them back it's logical that things will pick up as we'll be a better side for it.

But on the other hand your arguement about Hanilton and Dundee having settled teams is Probably because the manager at these teams know there 1st 14 players, or their best 11, and their best positions.

Coyle is still working his out, that is a big negative for us. Hopefully he will find it out sooner rather than later, before it is too late.

[Dave H]

Looking up the league to see 11pts gap is disheartening, but we are where we are - with a quick browse down the league to see 3pts above bottom. its not a fact of looking at a glass half full or empty, if we want to win the league you got to win more games than you ultimately draw and lose combined. Therefore in 6 games we have failed to win - this is not acceptable!

When you win the league you ultimately having a run of being unbeaten consisting of many wins and a few draws. Accies are setting the pace and we are no where to be seen. (ie exactly the same as StMirren and Gretna in previous seasons) We need to get this sorted come Saturday or another weekend passes with catch up. (How I would love to be sitting top of the league, I have forgotten what that feels like!)

I ought to add as a reminder that we get 3 points for a win, so comparing our defeats record in 90 minutes with others is strange? when we should be comparing wins, if we are setting our sights correctly

[Cagey]

Seems strange that we get so many draws as I don`t think we are a defensive team but for the last 3 seasons draws have killed us so we may just be.

To answer the question ,1 win is not acceptable given the squad we have I would have expected us to be 3 points of the top & not the bottom.

The next 2 games are huge for us . Two wins & we are still in it, anything else & we are struggling.

[bracoboy]

Way too soon to get worried. If it is 2 wins from 14 games that's different. The problem is that this run has occurred at the start of the season. If we had won 4, lost 1 and drawn 2, 14 points would have been very acceptable and a run of 1 win from 7 after that, possibly bearable.

What we really need is the sound of a bottle crashing at NDP and a run of results to start now. :-o

[SJC]

Using injuries as an excuse is never acceptable beacuse theres no guarantee that either James, Savo, Hardie or Peaso will finish the season without crocking themselves again. Coyle knew that these players have been playing all last season while carrying injuries so we should have managed to sign 4 players good enough to replace them- simple as that.

One win is nowhere near good enough, we have been down this road every single season in this division, whether it be Falkirk, ICT, St Mirren or Gretna we have always went through a bout of horrendous form which has seen us end up 10+ points behind the leaders.

If we don't win against Hamilton then that's it already I'm afraid, a draw simply isn't good enough because we can't rely on Hamilton totally imploding like Gretna did last season.

[St Mikey]

Lets be honest with ourselves. If OC had an interview asking about the start to the season and he said such stupid things like "the lady no singing, keep the faith" or other crap like that, every supporter would be concerned. 1 win in the league, our bread and butter, with nearly a quarter or the season gone is utterly disgraceful and poor.

It doesn't matter about injuries because, low and behold, most teams do get them you know.

We need to face facts and realise we will not win the league if we continue to take 8 points from 7 games. The people who use "KEEP THE FAITH" can shove it. Hard earned cash to travel everywhere to see inept performances is not faith but complete blind faith. Failing to hold leads against teams like Dundee and Stirling at home and Morton away. All LOST points, not points in the bag.

We won't go down but we won't go up. We need a winning run of 12 games or 12 without defeat to make an impact on the teams above. Dundee and Hamilton had played 3 and won 3 at the start of the season..........go figure........................

[Radford 72]

It doesn't matter about injuries because, low and behold, most teams do get them you know.

Except, like I highlighted, Dundee and Hamilton who have been able to name the same starting XI almost every week.

I take John's point about Coyle not knowing his first choice XI but the side would have been a lot more settled if we didn't have games with anything up to seven or eight players unavailable.

[SaintSam1884]

I think we were all guilty of expecting to hit the ground running after the successes of last season. To put right what went wrong on the last day of the season but I don't think Coyle had the same idea. I think he's accepted what happened on the last day, accepted the loss of Mensing and Scotland and has gone out to rebuild a side that came so close, yet was so far from winning the title these last two seasons.

You only have to look at the dramatic decrease in the age of this squad to appreciate that this is turning into more of a rebuild job. The injuries haven't helped, and had these players been available, we'd not be sitting on 1 win in 7, but we probably wouldn't be sitting top of the league either. Hamilton Accies are just like us last season IMO. They kept their squad intact as we did last summer, and they've started building on the foundations they layed last season, this.

We've signed and are playing with youngsters now, very much in comparison to the experienced teams we've had in the two seasons gone by. The most notable thing about our team is that even when playing well, we're not killing games off. It's in stark contrast to last season when we managed to win games without playing well at all. This season it's going to be a case of when we're flying, we're flying, but when we're losing, we won't have the character to pull ourselves back. And I don't foresee a change in that until we get some of the older, more experienced guys back in and the entire team more settled.

I've already conceded the title for the above reasons.

[Simon Quinlank]

I think we were all guilty of expecting to hit the ground running after the successes of last season. To put right what went wrong on the last day of the season but I don't think Coyle had the same idea. I think he's accepted what happened on the last day, accepted the loss of Mensing and Scotland and has gone out to rebuild a side that came so close, yet was so far from winning the title these last two seasons.

You only have to look at the dramatic decrease in the age of this squad to appreciate that this is turning into more of a rebuild job. The injuries haven't helped, and had these players been available, we'd not be sitting on 1 win in 7, but we probably wouldn't be sitting top of the league either. Hamilton Accies are just like us last season IMO. They kept their squad intact as we did last summer, and they've started building on the foundations they layed last season, this.

We've signed and are playing with youngsters now, very much in comparison to the experienced teams we've had in the two seasons gone by. The most notable thing about our team is that even when playing well, we're not killing games off. It's in stark contrast to last season when we managed to win games without playing well at all. This season it's going to be a case of when we're flying, we're flying, but when we're losing, we won't have the character to pull ourselves back. And I don't foresee a change in that until we get some of the older, more experienced guys back in and the entire team more settled.

I've already conceded the title for the above reasons.

Although I think it's far too early to concede the title, I do think you've hit the nail on the head there - James and Hardie in particular have been a huge miss for the strength and character they bring to the team (ditto Mensing), and that's why, for me, Coyle is dead right in putting James straight into the team whenever he's fit, regardless of how well Rut/Ando/McManus play.

[7-2]

I think we were all guilty of expecting to hit the ground running after the successes of last season.

Why should we be 'guilty' of that?

[SaintSam1884]

Why should we be 'guilty' of that?

Looking back, with the loss of Mensing and Scotland and the poor quality/lack of experience in the signings we made as replacements, it was probably more than a little naive of us all. We all hoped it wouldn't affect us but it clearly has, deeply.

[Radford 72]

Looking back, with the loss of Mensing and Scotland and the poor quality/lack of experience in the signings we made as replacements, it was probably more than a little naive of us all. We all hoped it wouldn't affect us but it clearly has, deeply.

You agreed with me when we spoke the other day that our strongest side would be very strong in this league so surely you'd agree that even if losing Simon and Jason has made us a weaker side, our strongest team should still be capable of competing at the very top of the league?

Main

Rutkiewicz/Anderson - McManus - James

Irvine - Hardie - McInnes - Sheerin - Stanic

Milne - MacDonald

That side would not be 11 points behind Hamilton. Before the season started, a lot of folk agreed that Simon would have struggled to dislodge McInnes or Hardie from the first choice central midfield and you voted McInnes MoM at Greenock so he is capable of still playing to a high level. Savo's strike-rate is as good as Jason's, even if he doesn't have the flair. We are stronger at the back with the return of Rutkiewicz and Main and Irvine is a better player than Andy Lawrie on the evidence so far.

I don't think there was anything wrong with the optimism on here pre-season. There is optimism every pre-season but this year it was well founded and we shouldn't be ashamed of having high hopes for the team. Obviously some folk think we've become a bad team over night and with the loss of a couple of players, I happen to think most of our early season form is down to the injuries and when we have a full squad available, we'll be a pretty formidable side again in this league and that is with the younger guys who have come into the squad. The main bonus about them though is that we now have a side to see us over the seasons ahead and not just from August to April each year.

[SaintSam1884]

I'm not criticisng people for being optimistic, Kev. I too was optimistic about this season, but I do believe that looking back it was naive.

I think we all believed we'd cope without Scotland and Mensing and it's only now that we look like coping without Jason up front, and two of our rivals are already well ahead of us. Mensing was a bigger loss than Jason, undoubtedly. And whilst we signed better individuals to play in the roles he played, there has been no substitute for his versatility that would have benefitted us greatly during the current injury saga.

I don't believe we have become a bad side at all, but we have undoubtedly lost the character and experience that was the driving force behind our team last season. They're either gone or are injured. It's all very well and good saying "when they're back" and to an extent I do agree that when they're back we will have a pretty tough side to contend with, but the point is that by the time they're back, it'll be too late.

[SlickDT]

I really don't think that Mensing and Scotland would have proven to be such a big loss, if our other bigger players were fit/available.

Milne, James, Hardie and MacDonald would have pushed us forward and as before said, there's no way we would have been 11 points behind at this stage.

When these boys return and our newer players fit in and get use to each other I think we have a not bad team on our hands. A team that will be higher up the table than it is now.

[Dave H]

When the injured players return, I hope they deliver in the few games they play before being injured again. We can not pin hopes on players who are infrequently dogged by injury.

We had a reasonable support away at Morton, the fans are still supporting a product that is failing to deliver, time for delivery I feel... I would love to know what targets are set for each quarter... we ought to have targets to measure progress. we failed in Q1, time to sort it out or fans will drop by the way side for next season after a enjoyable cup run last season getting the feel good factor back... a feeling that is nearly gone, if not already gone?

[Radford 72]

We can not pin hopes on players who are infrequently dogged by injury.

I appreciate that but your original question asked if one win was acceptable. I believe it's bearable in the circumstances given we've only lost once and have had anything up to eight or nine players missing sometimes.

If you are asking whether having so many players with poor injury records is acceptable, that's another matter!

It's all very well and good saying "when they're back" and to an extent I do agree that when they're back we will have a pretty tough side to contend with, but the point is that by the time they're back, it'll be too late.

The point of this thread isn't though. I'm not arguing that it'll be very difficult for us to win the league from this position. The question in this thread was simply is the start good enough and I think there are several reasons for the poor start and the real Saints have only been seen in patches this season.