How great is Lomas to get us into Europe?

[Calypso Kid]

I won't turn up to pay good money to watch a rigged competition. Others are free to waste their money.

[Dr Christmas Jones]

I won't turn up to pay good money to watch a rigged competition. Others are free to waste their money.

like and a thumbs up

[john1962]

I also think that people like John have the right to protest although I have no reason to believe that Mainstand is an 'odious creep'.

I probably shouldn't have said that and I apologise.

[ODAB]

ODAB, may I refer you to post #14 on the "UEFA Europa League - St Johnstone" thread, where I answer your last question. I note that you did not respond to that, once you had been presented with the facts.

I will once again put it in simple words for you: the big differences between Rangers now, and Dundee/Motherwell/Gretna/Livingston then, are that (a) Dundee/Motherwell/Gretna/Livingston got into financial trouble through overspending, delusions of grandeur by owners, and bad management; whereas Rangers' troubles have been brought on by 15+ years of deliberate cheating; and ( Dundee/Motherwell/Gretna/Livingston did not try to bully, threaten and cajole their fellow clubs to take their side.

Allow me to offer you three pieces of advice:

1. Get it out of your mind that this is an anti-Rangers agenda; it's not, it's a pro-justice agenda.

2. Drop the talk of 'hypocrisy". It's not.

3. Try supporting your own club, not defending Rangers (who clearly are your 'big team'). They are tax-dodging cheaters who are trying their utmost to ensure that your 'wee team', and Saints, never again have the chance to compete on a level playing field.

Point a: Rangers were told the EBT was perfectly legal (which they are) but misused them. Their cheating was getting a superior quality of player by using money they didn't have. Dundee were paying Claudia Caniggia £20k a week and Rab Daouglas £20k and a pound a week whilst refusing to pay debts to their creditors. Motherwell likewise were paying ridiculous wages whilst deliberatley not paying creditors. So their cheating was getting a superior quality of player by using money they didn't have. Where have I used that phrase before?

Point b: I don't recall any Rangers officials making any threats or bullying behaviour. They've stated their case as did Mr Boyle and Mr Marr, but don't recall them making threats. Mr McCoist had a very ill advised comment about naming people but I don't think he was trying to bully anybody and Mr Lomas and Mr Houston have made ill advise comments that brough pressure on officials in the past. The RST, that mouth piece Jardine and various journos may have been using such tactics but that is not Rangers fault. Dee4Life made some ridiculous comments and posturing if memory recalls.

Now to your advice.

1) Justice is the application of rules regardless of emotion or affiliation to create a situation that is ethically fair. Read the tone of your comments and tell me there is no emotion in what you say. To be just you must take awy emotion and you have not done so.

2) For those that have decided upon the back of all the other incident (Motherwell, Dundee etc) that this is a step too far then hypocrisy is not the correct term. However I'm not challenging those people. I'm talking about the hypocrites who are acting now because it suits their agenda. The anti- Old Firm agenda is almost becoming as twisted, paranoid and boring as the pro-Old Firm agenda.

3) I've supported my team for as long as I can remember and don't need told how to do it from anybody. That aside, I suggest you read what I've actually said. I am not defending Rangers. I'm questionning the constant and thoughtless comments that are being made on the subject, the hot air and bluster if you will. But as you didn't bother to read what I've said you have perfectly illustrated my point. And your inane drivel about my "big" team just proves that. If that were an Old Firm fan making such a comment then you'd be talking about their agenda and who do thy think they are etc. But you are just as paranoid and deluded as they are. You feel sure you know exactly what has happened and what is going to happen. You take only the points that support your view and instantly disregard those that don't go along with it.

So here is my only piece of advice to you: next time try reading what is said.

[ODAB]

Simple answer is 'no' which is why I am frustrated by complacency in recent posts. A new company entrant must demonstrate a licence earned via audited accounts and should begin its journey up through the leagues the way others have done over decades. The idea that a company can fail a CVA, be liquidated and yet allowed in under a debt-free guise is morally outrageous and unless ODAB, Kevin and Mainstand can ressaure me this is <b> not </b>going to happen I remain vigilent and will continue to object strongly.

I also think that people like John have the right to protest although I have no reason to believe that Mainstand is an 'odious creep', nor that Danny Grainger would reveal his contract on Twitter, nor that ODAB is anything other than the good of Scottish football at heart. I do have one complant about Kevin who chucked the initial grenade in the first place an cannopt throw stones without them being returned.

Since you have roused me from my slumbers - when I come to home games I come to watch St Johnstone and would prefer not to hear the tannoy man creaming himself about Spurs, a team that are not playing, and not in the same country, let alone the same league, and to my knowledge have no fan base in Perth.

For the record they are also utterly over-rated with a failed manager whose morality is almost as questionable as RFC (IA) which brings us back full circle.

No new club in the SPL without accounts and a licence.

I'm not going to disagree with any of that and as I always say everybody should feel free to state their opinion. If you do it in a public forum then people will disagree. I've said I hope that any newco are put division 3. I won't criticise anybody who chooses to take whatever kind of action they want as a result of the decision (including Rangers fans) I just hope that people genuinely consider what they say before posting.

[Calypso Kid]

Utter whataboutery.

[natalie]

.

[scotpages]

Is this a positive thread about Saints fantastic achievement in getting into Europe? Excellent, congratulations to all who have helped to make it happen

Welcome back, Jonny, and congratulations!

Where do you fancy?

Edited May 20, 2012 by scotpages
Screwed up my smiley!

[soulfulsaint]

Point b: I don't recall any Rangers officials making any threats or bullying behaviour. They've stated their case as did Mr Boyle and Mr Marr, but don't recall them making threats. Mr McCoist had a very ill advised comment about naming people but I don't think he was trying to bully anybody and Mr Lomas and Mr Houston have made ill advise comments that brough pressure on officials in the past. The RST, that mouth piece Jardine and various journos may have been using such tactics but that is not Rangers fault. Dee4Life made some ridiculous comments and posturing if memory recalls.

Jardine is a club representative and is paid by the club, he wears an official club tie, was in the Boardroom at SJFC representing his club and escorting the new (non)owner who he was paraded to our board of directors, the media and to players.

His threats - which were unambiguous - were aimed at smaller clubs about to partcipate in as sensitive vote; to tribunal members giving their time without reward; and to administrators. His threats led at least indirectly to offensive hate mail being sent to our chairman at the club I support. That is wholly unacceptable to me and should be to you ODAB. He should face charges of bringing the game into disrepute - but we know he won't - another in the long list of calumnies that this affair has let loose. It did not take a flawed media to make the comments only to circulate them

I will not extend the arguemnt to tax since I have no knowledge of whether he did or didn't benefit from the mis-used EBT tax limitation scheme (something that did not impact on Gretna or Dundee) But others wearing the RFC(IA) club tie at Perth that day did benefit. So that we are all accurate - RFC has already been served with tax bills and in the eyes of HMRC have acted grossly and in defiance of the law. They are appealing <B> the bill not the case itself </B> at a First Tier Tribunal - its not a court and their 'innocence' cannot be proven.

This is the biggest football scandal in my lifetime ODAB and unlikely ever to be limited to a single thread especially when our European qualification (which I am thrilled about) came not on the field but due to the expulsion from European football of a rival club. The thread was 'encourged' with a hint of roguish malice to tease people that are rightly appalled by the wider circumstances of our European journey.

I'm off to work and won't be online for two days please do not interpret my silence as acquiesance.

Back on topic well done Jonny - C'mon the Euro Saints.

[slf]

Jardine is a club representative and is paid by the club, he wears an official club tie, was in the Boardroom at SJFC representing his club and escorting the new (non)owner who he was paraded to our board of directors, the media and to players.

His threats - which were unambiguous - were aimed at smaller clubs about to partcipate in as sensitive vote; to tribunal members giving their time without reward; and to administrators. His threats led at least indirectly to offensive hate mail being sent to our chairman at the club I support. That is wholly unacceptable to me and should be to you ODAB. He should face charges of bringing the game into disrepute - but we know he won't - another in the long list of calumnies that this affair has let loose. It did not take a flawed media to make the comments only to circulate them

I will not extend the arguemnt to tax since I have no knowledge of whether he did or didn't benefit from the mis-used EBT tax limitation scheme (something that did not impact on Gretna or Dundee) But others wearing the RFC(IA) club tie at Perth that day did benefit. So that we are all accurate - RFC has already been served with tax bills and in the eyes of HMRC have acted grossly and in defiance of the law. They are appealing <B> the bill not the case itself </B> at a First Tier Tribunal - its not a court and their 'innocence' cannot be proven.

This is the biggest football scandal in my lifetime ODAB and unlikely ever to be limited to a single thread especially when our European qualification (which I am thrilled about) came not on the field but due to the expulsion from European football of a rival club. The thread was 'encourged' with a hint of roguish malice to tease people that are rightly appalled by the wider circumstances of our European journey.

I'm off to work and won't be online for two days please do not interpret my silence as acquiesance.

Back on topic well done Jonny - C'mon the Euro Saints.

well said soulful.i think odab is just playing games and trying to get the rise out of us after his latest posts .i agree with you about jardine i heard him speaking on the radio ,also mccoists comments as well.

on topic its great to be in europe with lomas's blue and white army ya bass.

[Pop]

Is this a positive thread about Saints fantastic achievement in getting into Europe? Excellent, congratulations to all who have helped to make it happen

Why did you delete yer posts Jonny?

The world needs to know.

[slf]

Why did you delete yer posts Jonny?

The world needs to know.

aye .jony its going to be great in europe and i hope to see ye there.braw

[Percy Johnston]

Point b: I don't recall any Rangers officials making any threats or bullying behaviour. They've stated their case as did Mr Boyle and Mr Marr, but don't recall them making threats. Mr McCoist had a very ill advised comment about naming people but I don't think he was trying to bully anybody.

Soulful Saint's superb post above completely debunks your argument and I hope you have the good grace to apologise for your error.

Justice is the application of rules regardless of emotion or affiliation to create a situation that is ethically fair. Read the tone of your comments and tell me there is no emotion in what you say. To be just you must take awy emotion and you have not done so.

So here is my only piece of advice to you: next time try reading what is said.

If you had bothered to take your own advice, you would have read that I am calling for a pro-justice agenda, not seeking to be the judge myself, precisely because I am too emotionally involved.

The anti- Old Firm agenda is almost becoming as twisted, paranoid and boring as the pro-Old Firm agenda.

Still spouting that same old line, I see. I'm obviously not ever going to convince you that I would be just as opposed to Dundee, Albion Rovers or Cowdenbeath being allowed to stay in the league if they had committed the same offences as have Rangers. It is only your twisted and paranoid mind that mutates my "pro-sport" stance into an "anti-Old Firm" stance.

You feel sure you know exactly what has happened and what is going to happen.

Yep. I know exactly what has happened (15+ years of Rangers cheating your club and mine) and exactly what is going to happen (spineless chairmen like Thompson and Brown voting new Rangers back into the SPL, followed by thousands of previously loyal supporters like me walking away from the game) - UNLESS people like you start to listen to the facts and not the propaganda spouted by the likes of ArabTrust.

I am going to leave this thread now before it gets any more off topic. Apologies, mods.

[andrew]

Who wants to take this one?

I will take the hiding behind though. I could say that you are condoning cheating by turning up. Some of us believe that sport is a competition that should within reason be sttled on the field of play. Some of us also believe that to change the rules because it may then create difficulties for others who have overspent is abhorrent. If you think its acceptable for the SPL to prostitute themselves to Rangers, newco or whatever they want to call themselves then continue to attend. Its entirely your choice and i wont criticise you for that.

The CVA has happenend before and the rules are there. Do I like them? No but at least no one is writing a rule because they say they need money from a newco. Two things here, would saints stay in the SPL if they became a new company, that is where the abbreviation newco comes from. Would any other new company be allowed straight in SPL?

I would love someone to come up with an argument that convinces me I have overreacted and I should continue to attend. I haven't heard one yet. Those who continue attend will look at the evidence surrounding a newco entering the SPL and decide that attending is the correct thing to do. I so far have weighed up the evidence and decided that the argument is stronger not to attend. Neither is right or wrong, just different people making choices on the evidence they have. Its actually becoming a bit tedious people like you and Kevin criticising people for having the balls to stand up for what they believe in.

As it was, and even moreso, a week or so back, John, when you and a.n.other (who has since very decently apologised) ripped into a person who, how shall we put it, is only interested in watching a game of football, being unable to comprehend the other factors which are so blindingly obvious to those of us who are more able so to do, and who is far less able to articulate a point of view.

For what its worth, I see, and agree wholeheartedly with folk like you and Ghostie.

In my position as personal assistant, I also see another view which no one else might.

[john1962]

As it was, and even moreso, a week or so back, John, when you and a.n.other (who has since very decently apologised) ripped into a person who, how shall we put it, is only interested in watching a game of football, being unable to comprehend the other factors which are so blindingly obvious to those of us who are more able so to do, and who is far less able to articulate a point of view.

For what its worth, I see, and agree wholeheartedly with folk like you and Ghostie.

In my position as personal assistant, I also see another view which no one else might.

As I said at the time Andrew I replied to a post that was in front of me without knowing anything about the poster. And it was one post which is slightly different to whats been happening here however if my reply caused offence then I offer my apolgies it certainly wasnt meant to.

I would be happy to hear any different points of view because as I have said previously I would be delighted if someone can convince me that my actions if carried out are draconian. I just haven't seen a shred of evidence so far to make me change my mind.

[ODAB]

Jardine is a club representative and is paid by the club, he wears an official club tie, was in the Boardroom at SJFC representing his club and escorting the new (non)owner who he was paraded to our board of directors, the media and to players.

His threats - which were unambiguous - were aimed at smaller clubs about to partcipate in as sensitive vote; to tribunal members giving their time without reward; and to administrators. His threats led at least indirectly to offensive hate mail being sent to our chairman at the club I support. That is wholly unacceptable to me and should be to you ODAB. He should face charges of bringing the game into disrepute - but we know he won't - another in the long list of calumnies that this affair has let loose. It did not take a flawed media to make the comments only to circulate them

I will not extend the arguemnt to tax since I have no knowledge of whether he did or didn't benefit from the mis-used EBT tax limitation scheme (something that did not impact on Gretna or Dundee) But others wearing the RFC(IA) club tie at Perth that day did benefit. So that we are all accurate - RFC has already been served with tax bills and in the eyes of HMRC have acted grossly and in defiance of the law. They are appealing <B> the bill not the case itself </B> at a First Tier Tribunal - its not a court and their 'innocence' cannot be proven.

This is the biggest football scandal in my lifetime ODAB and unlikely ever to be limited to a single thread especially when our European qualification (which I am thrilled about) came not on the field but due to the expulsion from European football of a rival club. The thread was 'encourged' with a hint of roguish malice to tease people that are rightly appalled by the wider circumstances of our European journey.

I'm off to work and won't be online for two days please do not interpret my silence as acquiesance.

Back on topic well done Jonny - C'mon the Euro Saints.

As the man with the orthapedic shoes said, I stand corrected. Jardine still holds an ambasadorial role at the club and is an employee. As such his words are even more ridiculous. However he doesn't have a position of any authority and to all intents and purposes is just being used as a mouth piece, in the same way the late Paul McBride was at Celtic. I can see why people would say this is bullying from Rangers but if anybody takes anything Jardine says seriously then they need to ask themselves questions.

With regards the tax issue, surely this has to then be considered a legal matter and the real punishment should be pursued in that way. If Mr Murray and Mr Whyte willingly allowed the club to deliberately evade tax then he should be prosecuted along with any and all those who helped him? In terms of sporting justice, the crime is essentially the same, paying money that they didn't have to secure better players. Within the sporting context that is what all the mentioned clubs have done wrong and what they need to punished for. Rangers are by far and away the club with the most serious offence given the scale and time involved. They have already been punished by the SFA and I hope they are punished by the SPL too. The problem is that becasue the decision is now going to be reactive instead of proactive, it is open to such fierce scrutiny. I genuinely think that the SPL chairmen are in an impossible situation and will lose out badly regardless of what they do. It is all very well people saying this should or shouldn't happen when they know they will never be in the position to actually have to make such a decision. If Rangers or any newco are allowed into the SPL without any penalty at all I think all the calls of spineless charimen and the likes will be right. But I genuinely don't believe there will be no sanctions put in place. Now each individual can make their own decision as to whether or not those sanctions are suficiant punishment but lets not assume that we know exactly what is going to happen. The majority thought the SFA would bottle it and they didn't. If no sanctions are imposed, I will consider what future action I should take.

But what has engulfed Scottish football and what is at the heart of so many problems in our game is negativity. Everybody seems hate everybody and think that everyone else is corrupt or bigotted or scum or whatever. I hope that a decision is made that can be explained to all and that people will listen to what those that have the ridiculously hard job of making that decision say.

[john1962]

As the man with the orthapedic shoes said, I stand corrected. Jardine still holds an ambasadorial role at the club and is an employee. As such his words are even more ridiculous. However he doesn't have a position of any authority and to all intents and purposes is just being used as a mouth piece, in the same way the late Paul McBride was at Celtic. I can see why people would say this is bullying from Rangers but if anybody takes anything Jardine says seriously then they need to ask themselves questions.

I agree entirely with you but the problem is that some Rangers fans are hanging on his every word. Jardine doesnt seem to have learned form the consequences of McCoist' ill informed statement. So I would have to say that he either wishes a reaction like that or to paraphrase and adapt an Einstein statement. He is totally mad. Madness being repeating the same thing over again and expecting a different outcome.

[ODAB]

Soulful Saint's superb post above completely debunks your argument and I hope you have the good grace to apologise for your error.

If you had bothered to take your own advice, you would have read that I am calling for a pro-justice agenda, not seeking to be the judge myself, precisely because I am too emotionally involved.

Still spouting that same old line, I see. I'm obviously not ever going to convince you that I would be just as opposed to Dundee, Albion Rovers or Cowdenbeath being allowed to stay in the league if they had committed the same offences as have Rangers. It is only your twisted and paranoid mind that mutates my "pro-sport" stance into an "anti-Old Firm" stance.

Yep. I know exactly what has happened (15+ years of Rangers cheating your club and mine) and exactly what is going to happen (spineless chairmen like Thompson and Brown voting new Rangers back into the SPL, followed by thousands of previously loyal supporters like me walking away from the game) - UNLESS people like you start to listen to the facts and not the propaganda spouted by the likes of ArabTrust.

I am going to leave this thread now before it gets any more off topic. Apologies, mods.

You have contradicted yourself so many times in such a short space of time it beggars belief. You want a pro-justice agenda from impartial people but you have already decided what did happen, what will happen and what the punishment should be. Heaven help anyone when you are given jury duty. You talk about talk about propaganda (I should point out that the Arabtrust essentially support the views you are putting accoss but hey ho you've made a habit of contradicting yourself so you may as well continue) and you refuse to listen to anybody who doesn't support you in the fullest and instantly dismiss anything that isn't the party line. And you talk about a pro-sport stance and yet you didn't take any action in the past. Now you may well be a man of great integrity and would take similar action regardless of who the culprit is but you have failed to do so in the past and I will guarantee you there are a lot of people here who are so bloody minded because of who is at fault here. We probably agree with what we would hope the punishment should be, but you accuse anyone who doesn't demand it or has anykind of different view of being a " Rangers' mouthpiece." I salute your passion but as I've said this situation needs to be about a lot more than passion.

[ODAB]

I agree entirely with you but the problem is that some Rangers fans are hanging on his every word. Jardine doesnt seem to have learned form the consequences of McCoist' ill informed statement. So I would have to say that he either wishes a reaction like that or to paraphrase and adapt an Einstein statement. He is totally mad. Madness being repeating the same thing over again and expecting a different outcome.

But it is like with what McCoist said. How much can you blame him for the idiotic actions of others? Both should have considered their role and their actions a lot more but the idiots will react regardless. United shouldn't worry about it anyway because the RST want to boycott us every couple of months for one reason or another!

[john1962]

But it is like with what McCoist said. How much can you blame him for the idiotic actions of others? Both should have considered their role and their actions a lot more but the idiots will react regardless. United shouldn't worry about it anyway because the RST want to boycott us every couple of months for one reason or another!

McCoist I can almost sympathise with although I still believe he was stupid with his comments. Jardine watched what happened there and continues to stir up the natives. Someone in authority needs to have a word with him.

[ryangordon86]

I agree entirely with you but the problem is that some Rangers fans are hanging on his every word. Jardine doesnt seem to have learned form the consequences of McCoist' ill informed statement. So I would have to say that he either wishes a reaction like that or to paraphrase and adapt an Einstein statement. He is totally mad. Madness being repeating the same thing over again and expecting a different outcome.

Agreed, it doesn't matter who the mouthpiece is, if they are connected to a club like Rangers they need to speak carefully.

Larger clubs tend to be followed by more than their fair share of Special Cases.

[Cagey]

This now another unofficial Rangers thread then ?.

[john1962]

This now another unofficial Rangers thread then ?.

Seems to be difficult to keep away from it.

[ODAB]

McCoist I can almost sympathise with although I still believe he was stupid with his comments. Jardine watched what happened there and continues to stir up the natives. Someone in authority needs to have a word with him.

Only problem is who is actually in authority at the moment?

[Abernethy Saint]

Don't wish to speak out of turn, don't take offence, but isn't this getting the tiniest merest bit tedious? Going round in circles a bit, and dummies will be flying out of prams soon. Not really why my Uncle Ancient Saint instructed me to start this thread.

Perhaps let some new developments come along, and let things lie for now?

Has us getting into Europe changed anyone's mind about Lomas, on reflection? What would it take next year to turn anti-Lomassers into pro-Lomassers?

Or could we maybe just have a few jokes????