Islam

[Kevin]

Islam is a religion of hatred towards non-Muslims. Nobody will/can deny it. They simply cannot preach acceptance and tolerance of Christianity/British culture because it would contradict their laws and beliefs.

Actually it isn't.

[Shaggy Jenkins]

It can all be helped with one simple phrase really

When in Rome, do as the Romans. Every place I have been I have managed to hold my beleifs and culture but still embrace and take an interest in the culture of those around me. When someone is not willing to do that then it gets my back up

[HertsSaintee]

Actually it isn't.

I think events like the handing down of worldwide "fatwas" to the Afghan guy who coverted to Christianity recently, to Salman Rushdie for expressing his views in his book (by the main-man Ayatollah himself, that one...), and to the newspaper in Denmark (or was it Sweden?) for publishing these apparently offensive cartoons don't help Islam's professed image as a particularly peace embracing religion. Add to that these major Iranian clerics and their leading politicians preaching the destruction of Israel, the US and the West. Tends of scare people, that sort of talk...

Herts

[Kevin]

I think events like the handing down of worldwide "fatwas" to the Afghan guy who coverted to Christianity recently, to Salman Rushdie for expressing his views in his book (by the main-man Ayatollah himself, that one...), and to the newspaper in Denmark (or was it Sweden?) for publishing these apparently offensive cartoons don't help Islam's professed image as a particularly peace embracing religion. Add to that these major Iranian clerics and their leading politicians preaching the destruction of Israel, the US and the West. Tends of scare people, that sort of talk...

Herts

Aye, and that's all it is, talk. If you talk to the Imams they will tell you that these fatwah's are getting handed out like yellow cards at a Saints game. They do not want radical islamics running around defaming their religion but all the ones you have pointed out came from Iran which is another type of extreme islamism.

[Das Rave]

I personally am not religious (what Saints fan could seriosly think there is a god?!)

I do believe that religion has caused most, if not all of the major conflicts in the world.

The fact that Islam preaches peace to all men shows that these people are not true Muslims. But every religion or belief (including political parties) has an extreme wing or off shoot. What is worring is that these people are prepared to die for the cause therefore there can really be no punishment for them.

Simply running them out of the country and squashing there ideologies will not work, I'm sure a wee nutter tried that back in '39. And failed

These people are trying to quash anyone who does not agree with them, so will evetually fail, as did Hitler. But spouting off about how horrible and wrong (or whatever al Muslims are) makes you no better than them.

So feel proud of yourself, those Saints fans, for you are as narrow minded and bigotted and Mohammed Bakri. Ya bunch o..........................TITS!

[Guest Mongy Max]

Unfortunately it is one of those debates where you will have a group who do speak out against it and it is understandable why.

I will say something which some may take as controversial, I was deployed to Iraq last year for tho and a bit months, and we were all made to respect the Islamic culture and live the Islamic way. We had towear long shorts, no soles of feet exposed, no alcohol, stop when call to prayer is on, etc etc, but do they live in our country and adapt to our religious policies, no. They have segregated areas of cities into " Muslim " areas. I did not see on Church in Iraq or Bahrain, I didn't see any Christian neighbourhoods, because that would be racist.

Bigoted, narrow minded of me to say that - maybe, but I have seen the other side of the coin in an Islamic country and that is the general opinion of the British Military.

[101 Saint]

Tony Blair was right in saying that this terrorism is not a new problem. It was there before the Iraq war, and it was there before 9/11. It is not confined to attacks on non-Muslim and Western targets. Right across the Muslim world, there is internal conflict, as for example in Iraq, Pakistan and Egypt, with Muslims destroying each other because of theological differences. Indeed the first sectarian conflict within Islam began in 632, as soon as Muhammad had died. By 657 there was a three-way split in the community; one of these three groups was eventually exterminated by another, and the two remaining are the Sunnis and ShiÂ’as who are still fighting each other today.

On 8th July the London-based Muslim Weekly unblushingly published a lengthy opinion article by Abid Ullah Jan entitled “Islam, Faith and PowerÂâ€. The gist of the article is that Muslims should strive to gain political and military power over non-Muslims, that warfare is obligatory for all Muslims, and that the Islamic state, Islam and shariÂ’a [islamic law] should be established throughout the world. All is supported with quotations from the QurÂ’an. It concludes with a veiled threat to Britain.

By far the majority of Muslims today live out their lives without recourse to violence, for the QurÂ’an is like a pick-and-mix selection. If you want peace, you can find peaceable verses. If you want war, you can find bellicose verses. You can find verses which permit only defensive jihad, or you can find verses to justify offensive jihad.

You can even find texts which specifically command terrorism, the classic one being Q8:59-60 which urges Muslims to prepare themselves to fight non-Muslims: “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies†(A.Yusuf AliÂ’s translation). Pakistani Brigadier S.K. MalikÂ’s book “The Quranic Concept of War†is widely used by the military of various Muslim countries. In it Malik explains QurÂ’anic teaching on strategy: “In war our main objective is the opponentÂ’s heart or soul, our main weapon of offence against this objective is the strength of our own souls, and to launch such an attack, we have to keep terror away from our own heartsÂ… Terror struck into the hearts of the enemies is not only a means, it is the end itself. Once a condition of terror into the opponentÂ’s heart is obtained, hardly anything is left to be achieved. It is the point where the means and the end meet and merge. Terror is not a means of imposing decision on the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose on him.Ââ€

[101 Saint]

The ultimate goal of taking control of society, as depicted by the Islamic Council of Europe in 1980, is clearly in the minds of at least some Muslim leaders. A Dutch Imam has stated that Islamic law is superior to other forms of legislation so there is no need to obey other laws. Some Finnish imams preach on the Islamic duty to kill a Muslim who converts to another faith, adding that it is difficult to carry this out in Finland at present because Muslims do not yet “own the stateÂâ€. Furthermore, the freedoms of European society are being exploited by Islamic militants and their supporters to plan terrorist activities around the world. London – or “Londonistan†as it is becoming known – is one of the most important bases for Islamic terrorism worldwide. This has been illustrated by the July bombings in London itself.

The above postings were written by a Muslim convert who was a former student of Islamic law and, by definition, the Qu'ran. For more info visit the link

http://www.barnabasfund.org/islamisationeurope.htm

[Broggy Man]

In a lot of cases yes it is (Broggy Man will probably eulogise on this point)however most of the crimes are committed by UK Citizens so where does this argument fit now?

Kev and stop me if im wrong but most imigrants are never granted citizenship of this country. They are given indefinite leave to remain in this country. The brittish citizens are born here and must be born of at least one naturalised citizen they can hold brittish passports. In the old days citizenship was freely handed out hense the immigrant population.

[Broggy Man]

I think bearing in mind the current climate this is one of the most interesting threads I have read on the forum. It amazes me the way your opinions have been balanced in the most and the way you all have attempted to bring your experiances and fears into a debate.

It was mentioned in the moderator area that this thread should be nuked at the start but hats off to you all. It shows we are capable of holding a balanced debate without flying off the handle.

[Kevin]

Kev and stop me if im wrong but most imigrants are never granted citizenship of this country. They are given indefinite leave to remain in this country. The brittish citizens are born here and must be born of at least one naturalised citizen they can hold brittish passports. In the old days citizenship was freely handed out hense the immigrant population.

Quite agree Broggy unless they are already citizens of anouther EU country which, at the moment, gives them free right of entry to the UK. What I was talking about was the arrest of the the suspects over the past couple fo years here in the UK, these have all been UK citizens as they were born here, not immigrants who came here. Sorry if I confused anyone

[Broon]

It was mentioned in the moderator area that this thread should be nuked at the start but hats off to you all.

Interesting choice of words

Your right that this is a very interesting thread. In Scotland we are sheltered to some extent but spending time in England you can sense the racial tension is bubbling away. One more attack on British people and I reckon this could boil over into something nasty. Its very worrying.

[Kevin]

Interesting choice of words

Your right that this is a very interesting thread. In Scotland we are sheltered to some extent but spending time in England you can sense the racial tension is bubbling away. One more attack on British people and I reckon this could boil over into something nasty. Its very worrying.

You should try working in the legal profession in Glasgow if you think Scotland is sheltered then Broon

[MUZZ]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5280230.stm

[canuck_saint]

Been following this topic for a few days and i'm still not sure if it is a wind up.

To post an article quoting Ruth Kelly, a member of Opus Dei, just about the most anti-semetic organisation around, is either proof of the ignorance of the poster, or that of my gullability.

Taking the bait though; i'd recommend anyone to actually have a quick skim through the Bible, Koran and Torah (or even online concise versions http://www.omsakthi.org/religions.html ) before they take far too literally what is writen in some of these "articles".

I don't think there's a single intelligent, level-headed person on this forum, or in the country, that buys into the red-top fallacy of immigration/ non-white/ non-christian = bad, mentality. The simple fact is, sensational headlines sell sh1t newspapers.

If we believed half the tabloid bullsh1t we've been fed in the past 10 years, we'd have found a double-decker bus at the south pole and all died of avian flu' by now.

[HertsSaintee]

So the 9/11, 7/7, Bali and Madrid atrocities (being only the tip of the iceberg) weren't perpetrated by Muslim fanatics in the name of Islam? It's all a conspiracy hatched by the US and UK Governments, the CIA and tabloid newspapers? And as it was reported, about a third of young Muslims in this country thought that the London bombings were "justified"? We didn't have several Muslims arrested last week, the police seemingly having foiled a major terrorist plot?

Perhaps you're right, maybe Islamist terrorism is not the most dangerous thing. The dangerous thing is mabe the rubbish spouted by lefty apologists who refuse to take their heads out of the sand and believe what is happening, because in their eyes it's an ideal "world" and things like that "just can't happen" in an "ideal" world.

You're correct that people don't believe everything they read in the papers, but fortunately it now appears that the British people are now starting to react to real attacks on real people perpetrated by real Muslim terrorists.

Herts

[Guest Nairn Saint]

Wow.

Came on to this part of the forum out of curiosity and have to say that I have probably learned more about Islam in the last few minutes than I probably should admit. I would regard myself as being reasonably well informed, reasonably well educated and reasonably well balanced. I have now realised that I am pretty ignorant of basic facts relating to this whole issue and have largely swallowed what I have been fed through the media. There is undoubtably a very serious festering of hatred in various communities throughout Britain and too many people, like myself, have our heads in the sand.

I was interested to see reference to Enouch (sp?) Powell earlier. I can remember my dad saying that he talked a lot of sense. I think much of what he said was misinterpreted and that his views were regarded as being too extreme.

How can the present situation be improved?

Thanks for making me think......

[canuck_saint]

"lefty apologists who refuse to take their heads out of the sand"???

Firstly no-one on here has condoned the recent terror attacks, and no-one should. There is no apology for mass murder.

The fact the attacks were supposedly "in the name of Islam" is neither here nor there. I don't remember this same kind of thread discussing Catholicism when the IRA were bombing Canary Wharf/ Warrington/ Manchester. Any idiot can justify their own actions by claiming they were made in name of God.

Surely the issue is why these people feel the need to blow themselves, and others, up. All of the world's major faiths preach peace, tolerance and acceptance. The problem is not the religion, it's the preachers, with their own agenda and warped beliefs.

The hawks amongst us may believe that the only way to deal with terrorism is through xenophobia, rascism and sectarianism (or realism as they like to call it). Personally, i'd like to find the root of the problem and address it, rather than shooting anyone in the underground with a bit of a tan (that sounds a bit more realistic to me).

Simple truth is there is no simple answer. If that makes me a "lefty apologist" - sign me up now.

[mainstand]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#The_Qur.27an

This is quite a good bit about Islam and their beliefs.

[canuck_saint]

a website about muslims with no mention of mass murder or hatred of the western world? Mainstand - welcom to the world of cheese-eating surrender monkeys!

[mainstand]

a website about muslims with no mention of mass murder or hatred of the western world? Mainstand - welcom to the world of cheese-eating surrender monkeys!

Canuck that explains about the actual religion and it's not a website about islam it's an encyclopedia explaining the actual religion. If you look up christianity do you get much about mass murders the holocaust and hating half of the population.

[mapleleaf]

An interesting thread, to say the least.

I applaud the articulate and thoughtful responses I've read since they seem to cover the spectrum of possible opinions.

Recently there were a series of arrests here in Canada of Muslim men who had, allegedly, made plans to blow up several important locations in Toronto and Ottawa.

Muslim terrorism is flavour of the month these days and it's hard to look objectively at a situation that the media has clamped on to.

Am I afraid that I will become a victim of terrorism? No.

Should we be afraid of a plane being crashed into McD? No.

I doubt that we need to fear Muslims, since it seems to be the power centres that are targeted, not the common person.

I don't pretend to be an expert on Islam, but I do know many Muslims and in the main they are punters just like me, trying to make a life for themselves and their children.

There is no society that I know of (or have read of) that does not have its share of idiots and fanatics. An act of fanaticism is the same regardless of the community that perpetrates it. A bomb in a Belfast pub is no different than a bomb in a Bahgdad market. Innocent people will die.

I don't believe that that will ever change. Some human beings are simply born to hate and will gravitate to like minded people who will use them to a wrong purpose. That's life.

Thanks again for the insights all of you have provided.

Smudge 8)

[inex]

And this is just today...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/22-bombs-explode-in-thai-banks/2006/08/31/1156817025005.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/77-killed-in-baghdad-blasts-and-shootings/2006/08/31/1156816996568.html

[Linky]

the fundamentalist expansionist (through conquest and violence) doctrine of the Qu'ran itself.

Herts

"Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Indeed God does not love transgressors (Koran 2:192-193)."

"Let him who will believe, believe; and let him who will disbelieve, disbelieve."

(KORAN 18:29).

'Whoever enjoins alms giving and kindness and PEACE MAKING among mankind is seeking the good pleasure of God.' (KORAN 4:114).

There are hundreds more. Islam is at heart a peaceful religion, yet it has been used by evil people to get people to fight for their own ends. The rules of Islam about war are more strict than any other religion, eg: war can only be used to defend oneself, no civilian or plant or animal may be killed, war must be the last option after everything else has been exhausted.

[Linky]

Islam is a religion of hatred towards non-Muslims. They simply cannot preach acceptance and tolerance of Christianity/British culture because it would contradict their laws and beliefs. ..

"Those who believe (in the Quran) And those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) And the Christians and the Sabians, - ANY who believe in God And the Last Day, And work righteousness, Shall have their reward With their Lord: on them Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." Surah 2:62

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant." (5:82)

There are more.