if we don't go up?

[blueheaven]

I dont think we could get anybody better than OC. Hes brought in alot of quality players. Questioning if he should go if we dont get up this season is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous - it's perfectly normal. Coyle's job is to get us promoted, and if he repeatedly fails to do that then it's both normal and healthy for pressure to be placed on him and for us to start wondering if there are better options.

Personally I agree with Temple, in that the context of us failing to go up will be important. I said last season that I thought he should go if we didn't go up - but, given the nature of our last-day miss, and our two Cup runs, I was happy to change and mind on that. I think the same applies this season. But people seem to forget that we were actually really rubbish for a lot of last season.

[Dave H]

With Coyle getting a years extension to his contract, it doesnt matter if we do not go up this season. He has next season to produce the goods. I asked the question at the end of last season (as thought he should of been looked at replacement as we failed to get promoted when the league was relatively weak and Gretna beat us) - I thought this season would be his last with us, make or break... but he then gets an extension so to secure his services. He will be with us next season no matter how good or bad we do this season.

One positive of an established 1st division team and not over performing, our manager is unlikely to be tempted away. No one is interested in him now. The tv said yesterday that it was no surprise that Dundee beat us. This is probably true as top teams at home win their home games.

[Attila]

Can anyone think of a manager who would want to join Saints at the current time who we could confidently say would make a better job than Coyle. I can remember us sacking Rennie, Totten & Stark all of whom probably deserved to go but the big problem was that they were replaced by Gibson, McClelland & Connolly who all proved to useless.

I personally cannt think of a credible candidate who would do a better job than Coyle.

[Ronaldo]

The OC is a fine mananger, but we must sort out a few things over the next couple of months while staying in the race. We've just had a couple of relatively poorer games and maybe the return of Hardie and James will boost the squad in terms of dig.

[Scobby_SJFC]

I dont think we could get anybody better than OC. Hes brought in alot of quality players. Questioning if he should go if we dont get up this season is ridiculous.

Not good enought to get us promoted though

[Ronaldo]

Not good enought to get us promoted though

Scobby, I think we should take a ccount of the semi closed shop that is the SPL which is a nonsense. OK we were 3rd the first two seasons and 8th the 3rd season after being relegated (seasons ending 2003 to 2005) and so didn't deserve promotion. However no other top league in Europe has only one relegation place which as a consequence stifles the ambition and progress of clubs below the SPL. We have been 2nd two seasons running and in any other country in Europe we'd have been promoted. I remember when SJFC won the 1st Division in 1983 and Hearts were second. A couple of years later Hearts just about won the SPL but for that last game of the season at Dens and a man called Albert Kidd. He had to emmigrate. I blame Dee4Life.

The point is that in any other league OC would have achieved promotion for SJFC and it is no surprise to me that every team that gets relegated from the SPL gets swallowed up to remain obscure for a frew years since the bottom of the SPL is stagnant. The enigma that is Gretna have defeated this argument temporarily but anyone who cares to look can see that Gretna were on the slide from Christmas on and particularly the last quarter of the season. They just scraped across the line so their form in the SPL is predictable. That's one poor promoted team compared to several that have been relegated and in fact Dunfermline had a good last quarter last season with wins in the SPL and a run to the Cup Final.

[Kevin]

God post Ronaldo

[The ghost of Jim Morton]

Can anyone think of a manager who would want to join Saints at the current time who we could confidently say would make a better job than Coyle. I can remember us sacking Rennie, Totten & Stark all of whom probably deserved to go but the big problem was that they were replaced by Gibson, McClelland & Connolly who all proved to useless.

I personally cannt think of a credible candidate who would do a better job than Coyle.

Now I for one don,t think OC should get the bullet if we don,t win the league this season but there are a few previsos to that statment.We must show by the end of the season a vast improvement in our play as it is now.We must do a bit of business in the next transfer window( lose a few players who are just not good enough to help us achieve our goal and secure a few new players who can help us improve as a team). Tactically OC may be a little naive but he can and hopfully will get better as the season progresses. If all these thing come together we CAN still win the league and I believe that it's still well within our grasp to do so but it,s not going to be very easy.

If we were to continue as we have been playing so far, for the rest of the season, it would be hard to see how OC could stay.He has some of the best facillities at his disposal,decent crowds and abit of cash (which few if any of the other teams in the division have).To finish anywhere but the top 3 would probably do it for him.

Looking to the future though I CAN see a replacement on the horizon if we end up needing to change the boss.Look no further than the man who manages Montrose and seems to be doing a great job. If he continues the good work he is doing there then I see no problem for him coming back as manager. He had a good record as assistant with us so why not...I hope it does not come to that though and OC is with us for a good few sucessful years to come

[silver_blue]

So long as we challenge he should stay. Since he took over we have about the best home record in league football in Scotland. Three league defeats at home since Aug 2005, never lost a game by more than 2 goals home or away and never conceded more than three home or away. How many mangers could achieve that with the resources he has. Stephen Kenny ?

Some people like to moan.

[OldPoster]

Tactically OC may be a little naive but he can and hopfully will get better as the season progresses.

Surely 2 and a half years managing at this level he would know what works and what doesn't work by now? Subs Excluding injury, 65 mins attacker on for attacker, 75 mins wide mid shuffle(either centre off and sheerin tucked in, or out and out swap) 83-87 mins another striker for striker. week in week out

[wee lee #1]

coyle is a good manager but at times shows a little bit of inexsperiance sorry if incorrect spelling, with decisions of subs wen too bring them on and who to take off.

[Corned Beef]

Scobby, I think we should take a ccount of the semi closed shop that is the SPL which is a nonsense. OK we were 3rd the first two seasons and 8th the 3rd season after being relegated (seasons ending 2003 to 2005) and so didn't deserve promotion. However no other top league in Europe has only one relegation place which as a consequence stifles the ambition and progress of clubs below the SPL. We have been 2nd two seasons running and in any other country in Europe we'd have been promoted. I remember when SJFC won the 1st Division in 1983 and Hearts were second. A couple of years later Hearts just about won the SPL but for that last game of the season at Dens and a man called Albert Kidd. He had to emmigrate. I blame Dee4Life.

The point is that in any other league OC would have achieved promotion for SJFC and it is no surprise to me that every team that gets relegated from the SPL gets swallowed up to remain obscure for a frew years since the bottom of the SPL is stagnant. The enigma that is Gretna have defeated this argument temporarily but anyone who cares to look can see that Gretna were on the slide from Christmas on and particularly the last quarter of the season. They just scraped across the line so their form in the SPL is predictable. That's one poor promoted team compared to several that have been relegated and in fact Dunfermline had a good last quarter last season with wins in the SPL and a run to the Cup Final.

Good point but OC knows the rules, one team goes up and one team comes down. So saying he should be let off from any pressure because 'he would have got us promoted in any other country' is a bit off . We arguably have the best squad in the league and probably one of the highest wage bills (after Dunfermline) and we are trailing two teams with no money and paper thin squads. Theres a long way to go but this season is looking like a repeat of last season, crap results at the start coming on strong towards the end and just missing out. Coyle needs to take responsibilty for that.

[JJacko8]

this is a fair question muzz

but i think people have to take into consideration our injuries, look at our bench last week, mccluskey, weatherston, stewart, peaso and cuthbert no defenders or central players, were down to the bone, loosing mensing has bit us in the arse,

on Sat we had mcinnes who isnt the strongest, quinn sheerin and mcclaren who are not the greatest defensivly,

if we had a hardie or a rutkiewicz in the centre to toughen things up and win the balls in 50 50s then i reckon we could have won that game cause we lost out in the middle,

Coyle has done a great job two semi finals last year including a trip to hampden where we were narrowed out by the scottish champions a defeat to rangers at ibrox and a minute away from spl football you cant argue against that.

Injuries have got to us so far but with a fully fit squad we'll be very hard to beat.

[Real Madrid]

The problem may be that geoff Brown made all sorts of statements when owen was taken on about how long he was giving him to get us to the SPL

I was not expecting us to do it this season after what happend at the end of last year, call it play off syndrom but as some have posted its still early days but not looking too good

[Ronaldo]

Good point but OC knows the rules, one team goes up and one team comes down. So saying he should be let off from any pressure because 'he would have got us promoted in any other country' is a bit off .

No it's not. All the cclubs in the 1st division need to be 1st not just Saints, i.e. Livi, Dunfermline, Dundee, Hamilton, Partick, Morton etc. If your second you're not a total failure, being 5th or below yes. All cup competitions dictate that the winners only get the cup, that means if Rangers reach the final of the Champions League and lose they are failures. There is only one winner of the 1st division so if you get within one minute of winning the league six months ago it's a close run thing not a total failure. Being where Dundee were might be a failure so Alex Rae should have got the sack. I think one promotion place is daft and I stand by that i.e. you have to be 1st out of 10 to pass the exam in this league, but in the SPL you have to be 12th (bottom) to fail the exam, and swap over. Total madness. If the same rule had existed in 1983 Alex MacDonald and Sandy Jardine would have been failures, and there was a 10 team Premier League the with two relegated then not twelve with one relegated .... and it was fine.

[7-2]

One minute or 20 points away from promotion results in the same thing - no promotion. Promotion is the target at the start of the season so if you fail to get promoted that is failure.

[Corned Beef]

No it's not. All the cclubs in the 1st division need to be 1st not just Saints, i.e. Livi, Dunfermline, Dundee, Hamilton, Partick, Morton etc. If your second you're not a total failure, being 5th or below yes. All cup competitions dictate that the winners only get the cup, that means if Rangers reach the final of the Champions League and lose they are failures. There is only one winner of the 1st division so if you get within one minute of winning the league six months ago it's a close run thing not a total failure. Being where Dundee were might be a failure so Alex Rae should have got the sack. I think one promotion place is daft and I stand by that i.e. you have to be 1st out of 10 to pass the exam in this league, but in the SPL you have to be 12th (bottom) to fail the exam, and swap over. Total madness. If the same rule had existed in 1983 Alex MacDonald and Sandy Jardine would have been failures, and there was a 10 team Premier League the with two relegated then not twelve with one relegated .... and it was fine.

It's a failure if you have the best team in the league and can't win it. Thats the fact of the matter really. Dundee just came out of one of the most turbulent times of it's history, so I don't think you can compare them with us. Out of all the teams in this league, we are probably the best equipped to get up and stay up. So if we don't then it's a failure. Besides, had we performed better in the league earlier in the season we probably would have won the league. The same thing is happening this season. Fair enough, the league system is crap but we are still the best team in this league.

[Ronaldo]

It's a failure if you have the best team in the league and can't win it.

I agree with most of what you said but I don't go by any expectation or any assumption that we are the automatic champions. I think there are a lot of good teams/squads and we are probably the best thios season not last season but that is still due to OC. He still has a number of key players out and we still have to get consistency, hopefully that'll come soon or that elusive first place might be lost All I'm saying is that Saints have invested, OC has brought in mostly decent players with a few exceptions, they take time, but one promotion place is a disgrace even if we know the rules as you say - not even a play-off place is available, yet that is available right through England and the SFL.

[MUZZ]

but we are still the best team in this league.

i don't buy that anymore to be fair. we have some of the better players in the league but to say we've the best team is wrong. put it this way, i'd take dundee's midfield ahead of ours (not just basing that on one game by the way). even dunfermline should on paper have a better team than us. but the be all and end all is that the team at the top is the best at the end of the season and thats not gonna be us i'm afraid. the best team in the league at the moment is hamilton beacuase they are beating the majority of the teams they play. end of.

[Ronaldo]

One minute or 20 points away from promotion results in the same thing - no promotion. Promotion is the target at the start of the season so if you fail to get promoted that is failure.

Yes "7-2" the objective would not have been achieved and so SJFC then fail that objective, however I don't acccept that Owen is a failure with two seccond placed finishes even though promotion is our objective.

Paul Sturrock -

93/94 Relegated from the SPL - Failure

94/95 5th in Division 1 - Failure

95/96 4th in Division 1 - Failure

96/97 Division 1 Champions!!!! - He's fantastic, he's the greatest, he can do anything .... but he can't swim.

It's so black and white nowadays.

[Radford 72]

Does anyone honestly believe we'll win the league from this position?

As others have said, two title challenges in succession has been too much to ask from this squad. Obviously we keep plugging away at the moment but it's important that OC starts to build a team that can mount a challenge next year but getting a good start to the campaign. It's a long way off but two things that will be vital are getting us more of a test pre-season and making sure he gets his signings in early and not on deadline day.

He's started to move in that direction and we now have Irvine, Anderson, James, McLaren, Weatherston and Jackson tied up for next year, a good young group of players and the club captain. It's vital he moves to replace guys like McInnes, Stanic and Sheerin though.

[Noose76]

We're talking about 10 points here and it's still very early on in the season. Accies and Dundee will both lose points so it's not the end of the world. I was as gutted as everyone else on Saturday but the first 30 minutes performance shows there is hope and with some decent signings at the next window we can still be fighting right up there. This phrase does my nut in a bit, but it's perfect for today "Keep The Faith"

[Ronaldo]

Does anyone honestly believe we'll win the league from this position?

.

Yes but it will take a long run of 90% wins, a bit like Hamilton have done and whom we hammered and of course Dundee are not as far ahead as Gretna were. So it is possible. We have had too many draws, a bit like last year and should be onverting those games against teams outside the top three to wins from now on and beat Hamilton and Dundee at home. 50% of our results have been draws - we need the killer instinct, yes James, Hardie & Savo. Dundee have only had one less defeat than us, Hamilton the same as us. Hamilton have lost two of their last five league games. Too many draws is the problem. Still time, 24 games.

[Noose76]

Yes but it will take a long run of 90% wins, a bit like Hamilton have done and whom we hammered and of course Dundee are not as far ahead as Gretna were. So it is possible. We have had too many draws, a bit like last year and should be onverting those games against teams outside the top three to wins from now on and beat Hamilton and Dundee at home. 50% of our results have been draws - we need the killer instinct, yes James, Hardie & Savo. Dundee have only had one less defeat than us, Hamilton the same as us. Hamilton have lost two of their last five league games. Too many draws is the problem. Still time, 24 games.

Correct post. It seems to be the saints way though, so I dont understand why people are cracking up. We always have a shakey start to the season and then pick up as the campaign goes on so lets just hope we are a bit more ruthless with these teams that we should be beating.

[Simon Quinlank]

Correct post. It seems to be the saints way though, so I dont understand why people are cracking up. We always have a shakey start to the season and then pick up as the campaign goes on so lets just hope we are a bit more ruthless with these teams that we should be beating.

But that always results in us not going up, so it's not exactly reassuring to see us following that trend again. I think we had to go up last season, because that was when we had both the momentum and the players to do it. If we'd gone up last season there's a good chance we'd have kept players like Mensing, Morais and Scotland, and I think Coyle would also have been able to attract some far better players over the summer than, in the end, was possible. As it is, the good team that had taken two years to build up to a peak has now disappeared, and Coyle is now effectively having to start again with what are, in my opinion, weaker players. Without showing the disrespect of naming any names, I think that there are now players getting a game for us who wouldn't have got into our team when we were on a roll at the end of last season. Sadly, we now look every inch the mid-table First Division side: capable of playing really well from time to time, capable of beating everyone else in the league, and also capable of going on some good runs .... but never doing any of that consistently enough to challenge. There is no way Coyle will turn that situation around this season - he's now probably going to need another 2-3 years to get us back to where we were, if he even manages it at all. Should he be given that amount of time though? I'm not against giving him the time, but to be honest it wouldn't break my heart if someone else was given a go at it either.