Dundee in Administration on Wednesday

[blueheaven]

I've got absolutely no sympathy for this lot, and that includes their fans, who are at least partly to blame. The fact that some of them have been sending begging letters to Di Stefano pretty much sums up the attitudes I've heard and read from many of them on this forum and others like it over the last few years: one sugar-daddy turns out to be full of plopsy, and the first thing they do is go looking for another one. Have they learned nothing?

Too many of their fans appear to actively encourage having their club run in this way, and now it's (again) coming back to bite them on their Coagie rears. The people I do feel sorry are the innocent ones who will be left out of pocket by this whole affair - but my sympathy definitely doesn't extend to fans who have thought it appropriate to gloat about the money they were splashing out on players' wages when all the while their club wasn't even paying its taxes. How is it that the average punter on here could see this coming years ago, yet neither Dundee's fans nor supposedly experienced businessmen on the board were able to do the same? Was there ever any voice of objection from any of Dundee's fans to all of this?

The irony is, that while they're on here monotonously pointing out Saints' low attendances in the SPL, it never seems to cross any of their minds that Saints are actually living proof of the fact that operating within your means and adopting a sound business plan does actually work. Surely if Saints are such a so-called "small club" and Dundee have got a comparatively huge fan base (which, by the way, there isn't much evidence of), it should be easy for the Coags to simply do what Saints have done and they'd be laughing all the way to the upper reaches of the SPL? Or is their club's supposed size and power actually just a load of bollocks?*

If/when they go into administration again they should get the book thrown at them. They've tried to cheat their way to success for a second time (although at least last time they blew their non-existent funds on Ravanelli and Caniggia - this time it's Leigh bloody Griffiths! - the poor fools) and shouldn't be given any charity to dig their way out of it (I'm flabbergasted that some Saints fans on here have actually said they'd want to help them). I'd take their SFL status away from them and make them re-apply for it - and they'd only get back in (and it would be into the Third Division, at that) if their business plan didn't rely on individual so-called money-men, otherwise the vacancy would be given to another applicant. Let them disappear so that they can't come back and do this a third time - I certainly wouldn't miss them.

*Yes. Yes it is.

[SaintinReading]

I have a feeling that they will do a pompey and get away with it.

[MrBored]

Like mentioned above, having read the bits and pieces over the past few days, I reckon they will come to an 'arrangement' with the tax man and put off the evil hour until next year...and then sell their better players to raise the balance needed (assuming Melville & others put up some dosh).

Assuming they do get through it, the fans should be asking/demanding heads roll in the boardroom for this fiasco.

[Al C]

Thank you Blue Heaven. Could not be bothered articulating such a message: agree with every word. Way past the sympathy or benefit of the doubt stage with this one. They should get hit with every punishment going but I get the feeling they will wriggle out of this one as well and be back pulling the same sorts of stunts in no time.

[Cagey]

Thank you Blue Heaven. Could not be bothered articulating such a message: agree with every word. Way past the sympathy or benefit of the doubt stage with this one. They should get hit with every punishment going but I get the feeling they will wriggle out of this one as well and be back pulling the same sorts of stunts in no time.

BH spot on.

Regarding selling their players. They have Hark`whatsisname & Griffith that they might get money for but if they sell the whole team they will still get nowhere near £375 grand.

How are they paying the players wages which have to be minimum 20k a week on the small crowds they are going to get for the rest of the season.

In short they are fecked. I don`t have much sympathy with the creditors this time as they should have had more common sense than get involved with them again.

[Real Madrid]

From what is being said on P&B and on Dundee Mad, Melville is going to pay the tax bill and continue to fund the shortfall until January. The shortfall is around 20K per week.

After that well who knows. They could sell a couple of players which will cut the wage bill and limp to the end of the season. Then I would imagine they are going to cut the budget again and work within tight constraints. If or when Melville goes there is no overdraft, no assets to sell and its going to be a long few years for the Dens park supporters.

[Wish i was Joe McGurn]

From what is being said on P&B and on Dundee Mad, Melville is going to pay the tax bill and continue to fund the shortfall until January. The shortfall is around 20K per week.

After that well who knows. They could sell a couple of players which will cut the wage bill and limp to the end of the season. Then I would imagine they are going to cut the budget again and work within tight constraints. If or when Melville goes there is no overdraft, no assets to sell and its going to be a long few years for the Dens park supporters.

They could always build another wall

[jinky]

They could always build another wall

I believe Big Rab has already started

[Morientes]

BlueHeaven - absolutely brilliant post.

Couldn't agree more.

[Dooj]

BH - I agree with lots of what you have said but there are a couple of points that I would question.

Firstly, I know there are lots of Dundee fans who post on here and PnB who have been gloating about their sugar daddies, big club etc etc but I wouldnt want to assume that they are representative of their fans in general (in much the same way that I know that those who post on here are not necessarily representative of Saints fans). So, I do feel sorry for those genuine, reasonable fans who have to watch their club going down the tubes. I dont believe that the majority of them deserve any 'comeuppance'.

Secondly, I think that something important is lost when clubs go out of business and even if it is a rubbish business, sometimes there are things worth saving. Owners come and go, players come and go, fans also come and go, and clubs move grounds - it is very difficult to define exactly what a club is. There is something intangible, a piece of culture and history that it would be a shame to lose. So, I can easily understand why Saints fans would say that they would want to help out.

I dont actually know what the answer is - perhaps better financial regulation would help but I worry that more stringent rules would be unenforceable. Perhaps some big clubs have to go under (properly out of business) to act as a disincentive. Perhaps, we have to accept that we cant save everything even if it is 'culturally valuable'. However, I dont think it is as straightforward as just saying that they deserve no sympathy and let them go under.

[Al C]

I dont actually know what the answer is

Run your club properly/realistically and don't spend more than you earn. Fairly straightforward really. Other teams manage it.

[BlueJ]

However, I dont think it is as straightforward as just saying that they deserve no sympathy and let them go under.

They have overspent for decades trying to chase their dream of catching United and reliving their glory days of the 60's.

They have screwed over local businesses and other clubs trying to buy it and immediately started off down the same route again once the last administration was over.

It is all self inflicted and they deserve no sympathy at all.

[Dooj]

Run your club properly/realistically and don't spend more than you earn. Fairly straightforward really. Other teams manage it.

*Some* other teams manage it. Many teams rely on investments from owners and spend much more than they earn.

The answer that I am looking for is to the question of how do you (fans, SFA, SFL, UEFA, FIFA) ensure that clubs are managed properly?

[Dooj]

It is all self inflicted and they deserve no sympathy at all.

Self-inflicted by who? The fans?

Sorry, I am not going to join in the demonising of all Dundee fans as brainless idiots on the basis of the few vocal ones who appear on fans forums. However, neither am I going to defend them or the actions of the club owners/board - it is wrong that clubs are managed in this way. Nevertheless, I dont understand why any football fan would want to see clubs just disappear without feeling some sense of regret at their passing.

[BlueJ]

Self-inflicted by who? The fans?

Sorry, I am not going to join in the demonising of all Dundee fans as brainless idiots on the basis of the few vocal ones who appear on fans forums. However, neither am I going to defend them or the actions of the club owners/board - it is wrong that clubs are managed in this way. Nevertheless, I dont understand why any football fan would want to see clubs just disappear without feeling some sense of regret at their passing.

Partly.

Neither am I.

Depends on the circumstances.

[garydavidson]

Good to see Gordon 'the failure' Chisholm pleading for the SPL to be extended. This is something I support but not from the mouths of those who are not good enough to get there themselves. Especially ones that would then abuse it to get themselves in a poor financial position once more.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/sfl/2010/09/30/scottish-football-needs-major-overhaul-to-prevent-clubs-like-dundee-going-under-warns-gordon-chisholm-86908-22597026/

I think the title should have been Dundee needs a major overhaul to prevent themselves from going under time and again.

[Wish i was Joe McGurn]

jim spence reporting the players have not been payed today.

[Mike180279]

jim spence reporting the players have not been payed today.

Beat me to it!!! They have dropped the prices for their game on Saturday too!!!!

This is going the same way as Livi!!!!

[blueheaven]

BH - I agree with lots of what you have said but there are a couple of points that I would question.

Firstly, I know there are lots of Dundee fans who post on here and PnB who have been gloating about their sugar daddies, big club etc etc but I wouldnt want to assume that they are representative of their fans in general (in much the same way that I know that those who post on here are not necessarily representative of Saints fans). So, I do feel sorry for those genuine, reasonable fans who have to watch their club going down the tubes. I dont believe that the majority of them deserve any 'comeuppance'.

Secondly, I think that something important is lost when clubs go out of business and even if it is a rubbish business, sometimes there are things worth saving. Owners come and go, players come and go, fans also come and go, and clubs move grounds - it is very difficult to define exactly what a club is. There is something intangible, a piece of culture and history that it would be a shame to lose. So, I can easily understand why Saints fans would say that they would want to help out.

I dont actually know what the answer is - perhaps better financial regulation would help but I worry that more stringent rules would be unenforceable. Perhaps some big clubs have to go under (properly out of business) to act as a disincentive. Perhaps, we have to accept that we cant save everything even if it is 'culturally valuable'. However, I dont think it is as straightforward as just saying that they deserve no sympathy and let them go under.

I do realise it's never accurate to look at one club's fans as all being the same, and I understand that there will be some who aren't 'gloaters', but one thing I'm really interested to know is whether any of them have actually, vocally, disagreed with this approach of constantly looking for sugar-daddies to run their club. Go on any of their forums (or even this one) and you'll see they moan about many things, but it's pretty difficult to find any example of anyone online/in the press/anywhere else in the media calling for the club to simply progress by generating its own income and living within its means. There was an article in WSC a while back that mentioned the Dundee fans' reaction to Di Stefano taking over - it said that, amongst a huge number of posts, only one person said they wouldn't go back to Dens under his control; the rest of them were lapping up the news and bleating naively on about how they were going to overtake the Old Firm. It's just complete delusion, fuelled I can only imagine by a misguided assumption that their club is constantly on the verge of recapturing success from an era now long-gone. I wonder what the real damage has been of Dundee's fans' unrealistic expectations over so many years: had they not constantly put pressure on their club to emulate a level of success that could never, ever be achieved, would they now be in a position more similar to that of Saints?

Also, on the subject of feeling sorry for the club and its fans, I'd just like to point out that, had the evil plans of the Marrs/Di Stefano/Melville actually come to fruition, Dundee FC had every intention of shitting on each and every club it passed on the way up - and it would have been clubs like Saints that would have suffered (as happened the last time when Dundee, Motherwell and Livingston were at it). Saints and our fans didn't receive any sympathy when we were relegated following the cheating of these clubs: each of the clubs involved were too busy revelling in their ill-gotten success (limited success on the Coagies' part, admittedly) to think about the wider impact of their actions, and when it all went pear-shaped it was only themselves that they thought deserved public sympathy. And now, to cap it all off, Dundee are at it again. If they're allowed to survive, how many years until it happens a third time? I reckon less than a decade.

[Mike180279]

I do realise it's never accurate to look at one club's fans as all being the same, and I understand that there will be some who aren't 'gloaters', but one thing I'm really interested to know is whether any of them have actually, vocally, disagreed with this approach of constantly looking for sugar-daddies to run their club. Go on any of their forums (or even this one) and you'll see they moan about many things, but it's pretty difficult to find any example of anyone online/in the press/anywhere else in the media calling for the club to simply progress by generating its own income and living within its means. There was an article in WSC a while back that mentioned the Dundee fans' reaction to Di Stefano taking over - it said that, amongst a huge number of posts, only one person said they wouldn't go back to Dens under his control; the rest of them were lapping up the news and bleating naively on about how they were going to overtake the Old Firm. It's just complete delusion, fuelled I can only imagine by a misguided assumption that their club is constantly on the verge of recapturing success from an era now long-gone. I wonder what the real damage has been of Dundee's fans' unrealistic expectations over so many years: had they not constantly put pressure on their club to emulate a level of success that could never, ever be achieved, would they now be in a position more similar to that of Saints?

Also, on the subject of feeling sorry for the club and its fans, I'd just like to point out that, had the evil plans of the Marrs/Di Stefano/Melville actually come to fruition, Dundee FC had every intention of shitting on each and every club it passed on the way up - and it would have been clubs like Saints that would have suffered (as happened the last time when Dundee, Motherwell and Livingston were at it). Saints and our fans didn't receive any sympathy when we were relegated following the cheating of these clubs: each of the clubs involved were too busy revelling in their ill-gotten success (limited success on the Coagies' part, admittedly) to think about the wider impact of their actions, and when it all went pear-shaped it was only themselves that they thought deserved public sympathy. And now, to cap it all off, Dundee are at it again. If they're allowed to survive, how many years until it happens a third time? I reckon less than a decade.

BH - you might find this interesting http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/8712139.stm

[Denzil]

Here we go!!! :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9044022.stm

[OldPoster]

Wages not paid, Either mean admin or they have paid their bill and are transfering funds to pay wages

[Wish i was Joe McGurn]

Beat me to it!!! They have dropped the prices for their game on Saturday too!!!!

This is going the same way as Livi!!!!

Sorry dude.

Is this the same team who drew there first game and celebrated like they had won the league, was walking past after work and fans were jumping for joy. 0-0 against QoS. How the mighty have fallen.

You will judge how the fans feel by the crowd on saturday, if they don't turn up them melville may well pull the plug.

By the way the local papers and radio pundits are having a go then its clear they ain't happy and want change but how many times has that fallen on deaf ears.

[Wish i was Joe McGurn]

did anyone else catch jim spence's blog on the bbc. If not look it up.

[SaintDougie]

http://www.dundeefc.co.uk/

Everything cancelled!!