Rise of the Tories...........

[Smarmy Arab]

First of all AS, I genuinely appreciate the comradely tone of your post, all to rare in Scottish politics these days, and I will do my best to reciprocate. 

If I were to list the contribution of the Labour and Trades Union movement to working people in this country this would be a very long post indeed, that is not to say there is not criticisms to be made, many mistakes were made as you suggest the endless line of lardy weegies, time servers from the union, corruption, cronyism, sectarianism, nepotism were, and remain a problem.......I mean....sectarianism, corruption, nepotism, cronyism...among the working class in Scotland????? Who'd have thunk it????? Lets just blame the Labour Party!    All kidding aside centre left parties are being squeazed out all over western Europe and IMO it is not a healthy development.  The British Labour Party are currently having a conversation about what it is for in the post industrial society, with declining union membership, and liberalised global economy, the old certainties are no longer quite so certain.  IMO Corbyn will not fight the next general election, but he is a leader whose election represents the rejection of New Labour, and the start of some serious analysis of where the centre left are going. 

The SNP are not centre left, they never have been and they never will be, they have angrily shouted about 'Tooories' over and over as though not being a 'Tooory' makes you left wing, astonishing how many people in Scotland buy into this bull sh*t.   They posture and use leftist rhetoric, but in terms of policy are of the centre right.  Since being elected they have thrown sops to the middle class.  The middle class in Scotland now pay less tax than the middle class in Tory England, the Council Tax freeze has saved the wealthiest fortunes, those who depend on the services have taken a kicking, and many jobs have been lost as a result of this policy.  The big call on education was to ring fence free education for the middle class University sector, and smash to a pulp the college sector, where the prolls go!  Free prescription is a regressive policy, handouts for the rich........bridge tolls a sop the Edinbugh commuters.....policy after policy transfers resources from the needy and into the trousers of the wealthy.  How can an administration who have cut government income again and again complain about austerity?  Well they don't any more do they?  That little fad has served its purpose. 

Throughout the last 5 years many progressive voices whom I respect, have cited Scandanavia as a model for a new Scotland, I have listened with interest to Lesley Riddoch, Stuart Cosgrove, Patrick Harvie and others have invited us to make beguiling glances in that direction.......higher taxes, greener policies, higher salaries, public ownership...'soverign wealth funds'...........what's not to like for any self respecting socialist/social democratic/progressive like you and I?  I could get on board with this!  Lets say we raise the top rate of income tax and raise income tax across the board to invest in public services?  This was the Labour manifesto commitment, the Greens too, but Labour's plans would actually raise more in terms of cash....radical Scotland will surely go for that?  But 'radical' Scotland instead voted in their droves for low tax and cuts to public expenditure, 70% voted for either the real tories or the one's wrapped in a tartan blanket.  Indeed the other vision of Scotland (the one in the now discredited White Paper) was low tax small state tiger economy,  (like Ireland...how did that work out!) that would be the reality for any indy Scotland.

It would be a mistake to view supporters of the Union,  as Sevco fans who want a foodbank at the end of the road and a Trident missile in their back garden.  The indy movement lied through their teeth about  the prospects for an indy Scotland, they will not get away with that again, and 'Scottish unionism'...will not be caught on the hop again.  The conditions were perfect for the Yes campaign in 2014, and they fell way short of the levels of support required to float this thing, there is no evidence of any groundswell of support for Indy, just a hardening of positions on each side, a quasi-sectarian divide between unionists and nationalists......just what we need!  IMO Labour in Scotland have been squeazed between two nationalisms..............the SNP seem to be rampant in West Central Scotland, the agressive and preening 'whas like us' nationalism radiating from Glasgow makes me want to vomit.....meanwhile the upsurge in support for the Tories is great news for David Cameron.........who will once more be raising a glass to the SNP, the destruction of Scottish labour...and the damage it does to the British Labour movement has Cameron laughing his **ck off, perhaps the left in Scotland should take a step back and see just what is happening here.

 

[sixties saintee]

First of all AS, I genuinely appreciate the comradely tone of your post, all to rare in Scottish politics these days, and I will do my best to reciprocate. 

If I were to list the contribution of the Labour and Trades Union movement to working people in this country this would be a very long post indeed, that is not to say there is not criticisms to be made, many mistakes were made as you suggest the endless line of lardy weegies, time servers from the union, corruption, cronyism, sectarianism, nepotism were, and remain a problem.......I mean....sectarianism, corruption, nepotism, cronyism...among the working class in Scotland????? Who'd have thunk it????? Lets just blame the Labour Party!    All kidding aside centre left parties are being squeazed out all over western Europe and IMO it is not a healthy development.  The British Labour Party are currently having a conversation about what it is for in the post industrial society, with declining union membership, and liberalised global economy, the old certainties are no longer quite so certain.  IMO Corbyn will not fight the next general election, but he is a leader whose election represents the rejection of New Labour, and the start of some serious analysis of where the centre left are going. 

The SNP are not centre left, they never have been and they never will be, they have angrily shouted about 'Tooories' over and over as though not being a 'Tooory' makes you left wing, astonishing how many people in Scotland buy into this bull sh*t.   They posture and use leftist rhetoric, but in terms of policy are of the centre right.  Since being elected they have thrown sops to the middle class.  The middle class in Scotland now pay less tax than the middle class in Tory England, the Council Tax freeze has saved the wealthiest fortunes, those who depend on the services have taken a kicking, and many jobs have been lost as a result of this policy.  The big call on education was to ring fence free education for the middle class University sector, and smash to a pulp the college sector, where the prolls go!  Free prescription is a regressive policy, handouts for the rich........bridge tolls a sop the Edinbugh commuters.....policy after policy transfers resources from the needy and into the trousers of the wealthy.  How can an administration who have cut government income again and again complain about austerity?  Well they don't any more do they?  That little fad has served its purpose. 

Throughout the last 5 years many progressive voices whom I respect, have cited Scandanavia as a model for a new Scotland, I have listened with interest to Lesley Riddoch, Stuart Cosgrove, Patrick Harvie and others have invited us to make beguiling glances in that direction.......higher taxes, greener policies, higher salaries, public ownership...'soverign wealth funds'...........what's not to like for any self respecting socialist/social democratic/progressive like you and I?  I could get on board with this!  Lets say we raise the top rate of income tax and raise income tax across the board to invest in public services?  This was the Labour manifesto commitment, the Greens too, but Labour's plans would actually raise more in terms of cash....radical Scotland will surely go for that?  But 'radical' Scotland instead voted in their droves for low tax and cuts to public expenditure, 70% voted for either the real tories or the one's wrapped in a tartan blanket.  Indeed the other vision of Scotland (the one in the now discredited White Paper) was low tax small state tiger economy,  (like Ireland...how did that work out!) that would be the reality for any indy Scotland.

It would be a mistake to view supporters of the Union,  as Sevco fans who want a foodbank at the end of the road and a Trident missile in their back garden.  The indy movement lied through their teeth about  the prospects for an indy Scotland, they will not get away with that again, and 'Scottish unionism'...will not be caught on the hop again.  The conditions were perfect for the Yes campaign in 2014, and they fell way short of the levels of support required to float this thing, there is no evidence of any groundswell of support for Indy, just a hardening of positions on each side, a quasi-sectarian divide between unionists and nationalists......just what we need!  IMO Labour in Scotland have been squeazed between two nationalisms..............the SNP seem to be rampant in West Central Scotland, the agressive and preening 'whas like us' nationalism radiating from Glasgow makes me want to vomit.....meanwhile the upsurge in support for the Tories is great news for David Cameron.........who will once more be raising a glass to the SNP, the destruction of Scottish labour...and the damage it does to the British Labour movement has Cameron laughing his **ck off, perhaps the left in Scotland should take a step back and see just what is happening here.

 

You can lead a horse to water but,   Well put Smarmy

[Abernethy Saint]

Sorry, Smarmy, but you sound pretty unreconstructed! "We lost the election, change the electorate". I'm not going to vote Labour because Clement Atlee did some cracking stuff in 1945. The fact is, ex-labour voter after ex-labour voter has said the same thing: "I didn't leave labour, labour left me". The sense of betrayal is real, palpable, people are very very angry, and the Labour Party in Scotland is dead. A lurch leftwards isn't going to help them - look at the derisory number of votes received by the Judean People 's Front nutters in Rise and Solidarity. Adopting genuine Home Rule isn't going to help them - after sabotaging the Smith Commission and the Scotland Bill (we did see you doing it, you know), "you" lied to the people of Scotland over and over again, telling us we had Home Rule already. We all saw you campaigning alongside the Tories and LibDems in 2014. We SAW Magritte Curran and others cheering themselves hoarse at the last Euro elections when UKIP - racist fascists -nicked a seat off the SNP. We really, really arn't stupid. You've been busted. For example, the SNP didn't smash the college sector. As you fine know, they stopped spending money on silly middle class hobby courses and are spending it instead on vocational, high-skilled courses that will get working class school leavers decent jobs, precisely the kind of policy, alongside free university education, that the Labour Party of Atlee, Wilson and Smith put forward, but that the current mob arnt interested in because it might detract from their single, sole, policy position: SNP BAD. **** the people and pass the expenses. No one believes the lies anymore.

 Your broader analysis might hold water, just, on a UK level, where the fight is starting to be between the centre right split across 3 parties, and Corbyn on the left and UKIP on the right. On a UK level, it's same old, same old: can the left persuade enough people to take a hit in their own pockets for the greater good? The jury's  out on that one, although I'm impressed at Corbyn's poll ratings and election performances, once you disentangle the media lies. But how many will vote for him at a real election which, unlike you, I think he will fight. Nice guy, says all the right-on stuff, but can he run a country, and Tarquin's school fees are up again next year.  What most folk don't understand is that the Tories are systematically passing measure after measure that will make it all but impossible even for a wildly successful Corbyn to get elected. Busted.

In Scotland, Labour is led by a school debater whom Sturgeon gave the softest time possible during the election because she was making such a good job of increasing the SNP vote just by opening her mouth and spouting more nonsensical platitudes, or reversing her policy position yet again. And who has trailed into Holyrood behind her - almost exactly the same crew of expenses junkies, almost all of whom got hammered in their constituencies and slunk back in on the list vote (which nobody understands anyway!). 

[Abernethy Saint]

You want the SNP to move to the left? Join it, and make it happen. Just about every labour voter who is under 60 and doesn't support Rangers already has. It really, really can't just be a big cult can it? Is it possible the SNP are actually reasonably good at running the country, and that the voters arnt stupid after all?

[Smarmy Arab]

You claim the SNP is of the left, yet cannot give me a single policy that backs this up.....not one, after a decade in power. 

The 'Labour left me' narrative, I can understand, I left the Labour Party through the Blair years...........During the Blair the SNP were considerably to the right of Labour, remember Salmond demanding more deregulation, lower taxs etc.........rushing into a right wing nationalist party because 'labour left me' makes no sense whatever.

'They campaigned with the Tories'..............so logically the SNP are currently campaigning with the Tories against Brexit.............so have the SNP now left you as well? 

There was a referendum on the constitution, voting no, campaigning for a no vote is not a treatcherous act, it is a legitimate position to hold, especially as the model of independence on offer was all over the place, and is now in ash, who would vote for an economy with no currency?  with a 16% hit on government Income (16%!).....a pension time bomb?   If you think all this is a price worth paying, fine a principled position I respect............but telling us we will be Norway is nutty and the majority know it.

 

Here is an excellent aricle by a yes supporter outlining the (downright creepy) lack of introspection of yes campaigners..........has it never occurred to you that yes lost because they lost the arguments?  and they did on a whole number of fronts, or can this always be down to believing the majority of Scots were duped, by a unionist media.................2.5 million of them?

 

http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/be-critical-have-patience.html

 

 

[Abernethy Saint]

Free tertiary education for all.

The Tories arn't against Brexit. Some Tories are against Brexit. The SNP arn't campaigning WITH any of them. Labour could easily have campaigned as Labour against full independence, but chose to campaign WITH the Tories, WITH UKIP etc. That's the issue, as I think you understand: not being on the same side of an argument, but willingly and gleefully standing on a joint platform with no attempt to put forward a differentiated product. That should of course have been proper Scottish Home Rule, a labour policy since the party was founded, but one they abandoned in 2014 despite majority support for it across the country because of visceral hatred of the SNP, and because they thought a straight no vote would save their Westminster expense accounts. Doh.

We can gave a meaningful discussion about how left wing the SNP is, I grant you. Is the term absolute or relative, to begin with. They are certainly to the left of the vast bulk of the Labour PLP - it wasn't the SNP who abstained or even voted for numerous welfare cuts, was it? Calling them right wing, though, is just plain silly, as I think you know. 

Incidentally, lots of countries don't have a currency. France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc etc etc etc. Loads of them.

Of course we lost the argument. We arn't going away until we win it. That's kind of how liberty is won: ask women, gays, disabled people, etc. And if you lot have nothing to offer other than Project Fear again, you'll lose. People are wise to you lot, now. 

Tick tock.

 

[Smarmy Arab]

This has never been about partisan loyalty for me, much more about the issues.  All stripes of opinion can share a constitutional option, this does not mean agreeing with David Cameron about Scottish independence or Brexit means you agree with him on anything else, as you concede...so why the invective against the Labour Party?  Whose work are you doing? 

 

'.....in 2014 majority support for it'???? What?  Independence....think you need to look back at the result AS.  France and Germany do have a currency.....the Euro.  So do Greece, as a junior partner in a currency union look at the tail spin they are in, the Bundisbank rejecting their budgets again and again.........lest we forget this was the path the White Paper was taking Scotland...........hardly worthy of the title Independence, or Home rule or whatever else you want to call it.  It was barking and the majority could see it for what it was....barking!

As a socialist it matters not which flag we live under, but being part of a large diverse economy such as the UK outweighs any advantages from being a small nation.  The decline in support for the Labour party has a lot to do with the flowering of Scottish nationalism, but the indy ship has sailed, for the forseeable future.  Maybe it will be different in 20 years tick tock!  

 

 

[Abernethy Saint]

You apparently don't understand the difference between Home Rule, a policy the Labour Party first proposed in the late 19th century, and full independence. It is a shame to see you swallowing and regurgitating Project Fear, and amazing that you regard self-government, a condition that almost every nation on earth enjoys, as something weird, to be feared and avoided. It is quite incredible that you see the recent election, in which the SNP substantially increased its vote, as signalling the end of the fight for self-determination. Shame, actually.

We'd better get back to the football 

[Smarmy Arab]

Its a shame you misunderstood almost everything I have said.  But in this format is all to often how these arguments go.  I was hoping you would have read the article I posted, where the author bluntly points out the errors of the Yes campaign and requirement of the wider indy campaign to think.......just a little, about where they went wrong, the economic arguments the obvious place to begin.  Any critique of the economic prospects for an iScotland are far more profound than 'project fear'.  Prize winning economists with no dog in the fight were incredulous to the proposals put forward by the Yes campaign, yet you dismiss these critiques as though the authors of such insight are in some way dupes of nefarious British state propaganda, huge mistake, Yessers still with their fingers in their ears and heads in the sand.  Not dissimilar to the Brexit arguments, political and economic union a good thing, with Europe...a bad thing with UK......illogical and utterly bizarre!  It is a pity you seek to question my patriotism (bit like scolding an atheist for not attending a church), for being opposed to building a partition across this small island rather than seeking to encourage political union the many advantages therein. 

Electorally this is a rule of thirds; one third will want independence, another third will never want to leave the UK, and the final third are to be convinced.  Believe it or not I am in the final third, and while I can see certain advantages in being a small nation, they are currently and substantially outweighed by the advantages of being part of a larger nation.  The campaign will never succeed in winning over that middle third unless they address the questions rather than denigrate the asker.  Similarly its a pity you dismiss my affection for the British Labour movement and all they achieved as 'unreconstructed'.  Child poverty in Sunderland, Bristol or Liverpool is every bit as important to me as child poverty in Motherwell or Dundee, and the rise of nationalist feeling across these islands is leading to an unhealthy balkanisation of UK politics, and if you think the Celtic fringe will be better off in the end, you really do need to see past the emotion of nationalism to harsh economic and political reality of the fragmenting of political unions across the UK (and across the wider continent).  My overarching fear is not of 'independence', it is of the permanent decline of democratic socialism in advanced capitalist societies.  This would be bad news for pensioners, the sick, the disabled, the low paid, and devastating for the social fabric of our society.......the wave of anti politics, something I have been a part of in many ways, whilst understandable and even laudable, is now corroding structures of protection for the vulnerable.  Syritza in Greece, Podemos in Spain basically headless student politics.............. that suits the powerful, IMO the SNP have hitched a ride on such populism, but will not deliver........my 'fears' as you put it are a million miles away from project fear, and a world away the narssism of minor difference that seeps like puss from every seam in nationalist politics.

The challenge for Nicola Strugeon and the SNP is to use their political advantage for a federalist solution based around interdepence and common interest.........I won't hold my breath, the SNP would have us all living in tents so long as 'we fu*cked it up for ourselves', honestly so many SnP members have told me this with their hands on their hearts and passion in their tone......unf*ckenbelievable baffoonery! 

No doubt this will come up again AS, but if you really want to seperate from the UK you need to address the questions.  The movement for Scottish independence have constructed a hegemonic populism whereby all criticism can be dismissed if it comes from a 'unionist', the default position is to evoke project fear and other such side shows, but as I have tried to say only 1 in 4 believe this, everyone else has moved on, the debate has moved on Indy is oot the windae for the next while, even Nicola knows it but she keeps dangling the carrot for the fundamentalists......as I said at the start leaving Scottish politics in a state of stasis.
 

[Cagey]

Give it a ****in drink. As Biscuit said . Back to football.

[sixties saintee]

Thats the problem with this Country Apathy, you have to go deeper than the crap you get shovel fed from our Esteemed Media, I would not even try to debate with Smarmy or AS, but at least I have learned a lot from both sides of the debate, hope they carry it on.

[babychunder]

Just spent the weekend in Denmark. £250 a night for hotel (includes various taxes), £2.50 for a bottle of water (includes environmental tax on the plastic bottle), £6 for a half pint (includes duty and taxes). The folks I work with there tell me that the difference in take home pay between a CEO and a Bog Cleaner is very small due to their progressive tax system. This creates a flat, non-hierarchical society where people from all walks of life mingle freely. We took a walk round Christinia, an alternative community of some 1000 folks who live on the outskirts of town, commune-fashion. Lots of soft drugs on the go, peace and free love, no violence, recycling, arts and crafts, thriving music scene etc. Education, health, and other govt services we have to pay for here are free in Denmark. Surveys cite the Danes as being the happiest people in the world. I was debating the independence issue with my wife over beers and her view is firmly against, based on the lack of leadership qualities and vision from those advocating separatism. My view is that I'd like Scotland to be like Denmark, but it will take a long time to achieve and so really the indy vote is more for our children / grandchildren than us. Plus I don't think that we should trust or rely on politicians to deliver our future, it's in our own hands more than theirs and their role should be to reflect the will of the people. Working folks won't swallow a sharp hike in taxes, nor can we depend on oil to pay our bills. In Denmark there has been no overall political majority for a long time, there are basically two strong parties and several weaker ones who have all learned to cooperate and share power. There's no corruption there, public bodies are open, accountable and transparent, citizens take a pride in their country and nationality and tend to pull together. In recent years, the political pendulum has swung right a bit, but there are loonies on both sides. It's generally a fair, open and tolerant society.

If anyone convinced me that Scottish independence would lead to us becoming like Denmark I'd mark my X for it right away. However, the vision put out by the yes campaign was not very compelling and everyone ended up rolling around in the mud. A great pity - opportunity missed.

EDIT I almost forgot this thread is about the rise of the Tories. I can see swings to the right in all the countries I work in. This may portend more separatism, hard to say, but in Scotland I'm not really sure what the Tories stand for, couldn't see through all the bluster I'm afraid.

Edited May 17, 2016 by babychunder

[Crossest Man In Scotland]

Labour and SNP have been banging on for 20 years plus about how wicked the Tories are but neithet has taken any steps to reverse key Tory policies of 80's namely:

Reducing taxes 

Curbing power of trade unions

Privatisation of loss making state industries 

Right to buy council houses

Deregulation of businesses 

To me, that is a tacit admission that these policies greatly benefited the whole of society so I find their bad mouthing of Conservative party and voters to be hypocritical and tedious.

 

[babychunder]

PS I just found this interesting piece about Denmark written by Bernie Sanders.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/what-can-we-learn-from-de_b_3339736.html

 

[slf]

Labour and SNP have been banging on for 20 years plus about how wicked the Tories are but neithet has taken any steps to reverse key Tory policies of 80's namely:

Reducing taxes 

Curbing power of trade unions

Privatisation of loss making state industries 

Right to buy council houses

Deregulation of businesses 

To me, that is a tacit admission that these policies greatly benefited the whole of society so I find their bad mouthing of Conservative party and voters to be hypocritical and tedious.

 

you need to take a good look at yersel.

 

[sixties saintee]

Labour and SNP have been banging on for 20 years plus about how wicked the Tories are but neithet has taken any steps to reverse key Tory policies of 80's namely:

Reducing taxes 

Curbing power of trade unions

Privatisation of loss making state industries 

Right to buy council houses

Deregulation of businesses 

To me, that is a tacit admission that these policies greatly benefited the whole of society so I find their bad mouthing of Conservative party and voters to be hypocritical and tedious.

 

            Are you David Maundell in disguise.

[Smarmy Arab]

Just spent the weekend in Denmark. £250 a night for hotel (includes various taxes), £2.50 for a bottle of water (includes environmental tax on the plastic bottle), £6 for a half pint (includes duty and taxes). The folks I work with there tell me that the difference in take home pay between a CEO and a Bog Cleaner is very small due to their progressive tax system. This creates a flat, non-hierarchical society where people from all walks of life mingle freely. We took a walk round Christinia, an alternative community of some 1000 folks who live on the outskirts of town, commune-fashion. Lots of soft drugs on the go, peace and free love, no violence, recycling, arts and crafts, thriving music scene etc. Education, health, and other govt services we have to pay for here are free in Denmark. Surveys cite the Danes as being the happiest people in the world. I was debating the independence issue with my wife over beers and her view is firmly against, based on the lack of leadership qualities and vision from those advocating separatism. My view is that I'd like Scotland to be like Denmark, but it will take a long time to achieve and so really the indy vote is more for our children / grandchildren than us. Plus I don't think that we should trust or rely on politicians to deliver our future, it's in our own hands more than theirs and their role should be to reflect the will of the people. Working folks won't swallow a sharp hike in taxes, nor can we depend on oil to pay our bills. In Denmark there has been no overall political majority for a long time, there are basically two strong parties and several weaker ones who have all learned to cooperate and share power. There's no corruption there, public bodies are open, accountable and transparent, citizens take a pride in their country and nationality and tend to pull together. In recent years, the political pendulum has swung right a bit, but there are loonies on both sides. It's generally a fair, open and tolerant society.

If anyone convinced me that Scottish independence would lead to us becoming like Denmark I'd mark my X for it right away. However, the vision put out by the yes campaign was not very compelling and everyone ended up rolling around in the mud. A great pity - opportunity missed.

EDIT I almost forgot this thread is about the rise of the Tories. I can see swings to the right in all the countries I work in. This may portend more separatism, hard to say, but in Scotland I'm not really sure what the Tories stand for, couldn't see through all the bluster I'm afraid.

Interesting post Chunder, as I said at the beginning of this thread, I too could get on board with this mission, but there are huge obsticles to such a transformation.  The uk is such a class ridden society, and the levels of depravation left following de-industrialisation is way bigger than anything in the Nordic nations.  Such a cohort brings all manner of difficulties and expenses.   Further, the rich here have opt-outs in terms of service provision (education and health), in Scandanavia everyone uses the same services, (if everyone's got it, I've got it, a great principle of social democracy)...........so the service are good, held together by levels of social solidarity we can only dream of.  Equality is often the measure of how a society fairs in terms the happiness of its citizens the Nordic nations are pretty much text book cases of working captialism with socialist regulation mitigating the worst of capitalism's failings.   Excellent (but contested) thesis on this here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level:_Why_More_Equal_Societies_Almost_Always_Do_Better

[Smarmy Arab]

Labour and SNP have been banging on for 20 years plus about how wicked the Tories are but neithet has taken any steps to reverse key Tory policies of 80's namely:

Reducing taxes 

Curbing power of trade unions

Privatisation of loss making state industries 

Right to buy council houses

Deregulation of businesses 

To me, that is a tacit admission that these policies greatly benefited the whole of society so I find their bad mouthing of Conservative party and voters to be hypocritical and tedious.

 

I think the point you raise is an important and valid one Mr Angry.  There have been big advantages for lots of people from the policies you identify, and many people feel better off........because they are!  From 1950 onwards the standard of living has increased steadily and today the greater mass of the population enjoy a standard of living beyond the wildest dreams of their grandparents.............that is why the Tories win election, that is why 70% of voters at the last election rejected a redistributive tax plan from Labour and voted with the SNP and Tories for low taxes.

In the opening pages of 'The Communist Manifesto' Karl Marx euIogises capitalism for the great things it contributed to humanity,.....great cities teaming with culture..........advances in science, medicine and technology........how capitalism had rescued the workers from 'rural idiocy' (ever met anyone from Dunning?) and the suffocating cluches of the church.....and how socialism should seek to retain such trajectories of progress.  He then sits in the British Library for the next 30 years outlining the human cost, the suffering of these advances and how capitalism seems incapable of genuine equality due to its own expoitative structures.  IMO capitalsim only works with regular injections of socialism, to save it from itself.........or you end up with 1% owning everything and the mass of the population being left behind.........wait a minute?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/14/richest-1percent-half-global-wealth-credit-suisse-report

Time for an injection?

[babychunder]

Redistribution of wealth is all very well and good. However in countries such as Soviet Russia it didn't work very well and now you see the pendulum has swung to the other extreme with Putin and his cronies sucking on both state teats at once. The urge to own property, generate profit, control the means of production are all drivers of capitalism; and the extent to which they are delivered quite rightly ought to be directly proportional to the effort expended in their pursuit. I don't think someone who puts in chuff all effort should share equally in the spoils of someone who busts their hump, but that said the stronger members of society have a moral obligation to support weaker ones to a greater extent. The progressive tax system in Denmark ensures this while still incenting people to work hard and get along. The social security safety net in Denmark is very generous and being out of work doesn't condemn people to live on the breadline; a policy the Tories seem to espouse here which will backfire by forcing people into the black economy or (even worse) a life of crime.

[jazzsaint]

#toryelectionfraud currently trending on twitter

[AthensSaint]

What about The Green Party as an altetnative in Scotland.

[Smarmy Arab]

Interesting article....

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/06/podemos-surge-wakeup-call-european-left-spain-uk-radical

[garydavidson]

but 47% of the vote...on a 55% turnout is circa 26% of the population, 1 in 4 hardly a mandate for anything....

If you don't vote you forgo your voice - nice use of stats to make a point

[garydavidson]

The only thing that's changed is that it's now a yellow rosette. John Mason getting in is an embarrassment. Horrible man. 

John Mason was already the MSP for that seat. Be interested to know what your beef is with him? I don't agree with his religious stand point but not had many other issues with him.

Certainly better than Anas Sawar.

[Honest Saints Fan]

He's a bigot and hides behind his religious views. Horrible man.

My fave John Mason moment happened the other day... John Mason is making Named Persons arguments based on the Bible. Many examples of families going wrong, like Cain killing Abel, he says.