Scotland v Northern Ireland

[Corned Beef]

I don't hate the En##ish, I merely have a healthy disdain for them.

In football, it's called rivalry.

Some people are far too quick to jump on the 'small-minded bigot' bandwagon...

It's hardly a football thing if most of the people who did the booing (or thought it was a good thing) did so because of english rule/it's no my anthem/they chucked ma great great great great great great great great great uncle out of his croft 400 year ago/the union jack is a butchers apron/they laughed at me wearing a kilt to work down south etc etc

Not that different to Old Firm fans when you think about it.

[wee john]

It's hardly a football thing if most of the people who did the booing (or thought it was a good thing) did so because of english rule/it's no my anthem/they chucked ma great great great great great great great great great uncle out of his croft 400 year ago/the union jack is a butchers apron/they laughed at me wearing a kilt to work down south etc etc

Not that different to Old Firm fans when you think about it.

rubbish, absolute rubbish.

it is about now, some want independance, some want to run our own country, some want away from westminster rule.

It is folk like you that stir the bigot thing up just because some people in this country want to be independant again.

You want the union fine, that is up to you, but do not call people racist/bigots because they want something different.

JUST BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DO NOT WANT TO BE RULED FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY DOES NOT MAKE THEM RACIST OR BIGOTS.

Now if you want to start on politics as monkfish does start another thread.

[wee john]

http://www.anthem4england.co.uk/

Check out these racist bigots.

a damn disgrace.

[Dave H]

I dont know the words to god save the queen but this will help get us all in tune for London 2012- Aye right! I just read verse 6 and how does that constitute a Great Britain national anthem? surely it is an English anthem? Also will it change to God save our King in future years?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571287/God-Save-the-Queen---lyrics.html

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring

May he sedition hush

And like a torrent rush

Rebellious Scots to crush

God save the King

Anyway - I dont really care to be honest. I am a citizen of Great Britain. I really think Northern Ireland and England should find some identity for themselves and support the movement at http://www.anthem4england.co.uk/

[Noose76]

I'm fiercly proud to be Scottish, but just as proud to be BRITISH, because, fundamentally, that is what I am.

I dont need to continually moan about the English and act like the stereotypical Scotsman ,with a chip on my shoulder, because I'm comfortable in myself that I am a Scottish Brit.

I go down to England all the time and everyone knows I'm Scottish and knows how proud of that fact I will be before I even open my mouth, so I've never understood the attitude held by a proportion of Scots. The TA is full of these types who try and ram it down your throat, believing that makes them more Scottish then whoever they're spewing their bollocks to.

[Indicator]

I'm fiercly proud to be Scottish, but just as proud to be BRITISH, because, fundamentally, that is what I am.

I dont need to continually moan about the English and act like the stereotypical Scotsman ,with a chip on my shoulder, because I'm comfortable in myself that I am a Scottish Brit.

I go down to England all the time and everyone knows I'm Scottish and knows how proud of that fact I will be before I even open my mouth, so I've never understood the attitude held by a proportion of Scots. The TA is full of these types who try and ram it down your throat, believing that makes them more Scottish then whoever they're spewing their bollocks to.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Sadly so many of my countryfolk thrive on feeling that they are continually oppressed by those south of the border.

Still think that NI should do something about getting a National Anthem of their own or, as we have done, at least use one of their emotive Ballads to represent their nation at these sort of events.

[blueheaven]

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring

May he sedition hush

And like a torrent rush

Rebellious Scots to crush

God save the King

When does that verse ever actually get used though? Has it not been pretty much phased out, because of the exact reason that people from Scotland find it offensive? Besides, Flower of Scotland drones on about fighting the English too - if you ask me, both songs are painful, outdated dirges that could do with being replaced. Surely there is more to celebrate about our culture than wars that took place hundreds of years ago?

[Dave H]

When does that verse ever actually get used though? Has it not been pretty much phased out, because of the exact reason that people from Scotland find it offensive? Besides, Flower of Scotland drones on about fighting the English too

phased out (no idea) ? it is a verse of the song, you cant just delete it (or can you) I do appreciate that it is not heard often though, but it still there.

As for flower scotland, it doesnt represent the UK.

(it is specific to Scotland - and we can blame the rugby boys for introducing that as the national anthem.)

I dont think England citizens would be happy with the flower of scotland lyrics as the GB national anthem. as the lyrics dont lie correct.

At the end of the day northern ireland are souless and need some identity with their own national anthem Then it wouldnt get booed at Hampden.

All us who are proud brittish people, do you know the GB national anthem? Im Brittish and I dont (but do I really need to know it?) When Im on my travels in Europe and asked where are you from, I always say Scotland. and sometimes get the comment are you English Two countries with different societies. That is why GB countries need their own identity, so not to be confused with being English and the reputation that follows them in Europe.

[Ronaldo]

Well, I'm sure this thread is drifting ever further off-topic everytime someone posts BUT it's only a song and the people who get that worked up about it are no better than an Old Firm fan. I mean ferfuxsake, Flower of Scotland talks about 'sending the English homeward', we should ban that lest it upset some poor souls down south.

Well no.

One song celebrates the existence of and defence of a nation and the subsequent forced retreat of an invading nation while the other celebrates institutionally in one part of it - attempted genocide.

I rest my case.

[gingermunkie]

Well no.

One song celebrates the existence of and defence of a nation and the subsequent forced retreat of an invading nation while the other celebrates institutionally in one part of it - attempted genocide.

I rest my case.

Mate dont ever become a lawyer.

The sixth verse has very rarely been used throughout its entire history. Who the hell sings to six verses of anything?! It is in fact not an original piece of the song, it was commisioned to be added by the very grateful german monarch whom Wade defended.

Besides the Scots who were crushed were a rag tag of french mercenries(sp?) and disgruntled scots clansmen who were worried their outdated fuedal system was being destroyed(it was and quite rightly). This force were terrorists trying to restore the Stuart dynasty which was notoriously decadent and much more oppressive than the Hannoverians who replaced them, Wade was defending the nation against these terrorists. Also Wade's force comprised of 80% scots, so dont give me all this English oppression bollocks. Many more scots fought for the Red Coat/British side as that was where the political current of the time went, the Jacobites were not a popular group. The jacobite rebbelion and how it sits within the wider context of British history is really far too complex to be refered to as a scotland vs english thing.

On a side note haveing just done a part of my degree on this time period its really interesting to look at the similariteis between the period of 'terror' carried out by the state against those tha they felt were a threat to the nation(ie highlanders and unfortunately catholics) and the so called 'war on terror' carried out against muslims and other religious minorities in the surrent climet(sp?). With the widespread discrimination, prejudice and distrust that it stirred among the common people - against scots then and muslims now.

If anyone is interested in this time period i highly recomend a couple of books, Britons: forging a nation by Linda Colley which looks at the merging of the parliments up until Queen Vic took over.

the other is by a bloke called richardson but cant rember the title but is something to effect of The Jacobite Rebbelion and Scotland.

Back to the real issue, was at the game and was dissapointed by the level of commitment shown by both sides. The passing from the scotland team was great particularly from fletcher in the first half, but the movement and drive seemed to be lacking a cutting edge. In the second half that 20-25minute period with the sending off and the penalty was great from both sides but neither side looked like they were ever going to win it. I know it was a friendly but really feel that all games sould be played as though you want to win them, otherwise whats the point. Also what was the point in playing Weir from the start with young Berra on the bench would have been a good chance to blood him in, just feel that if Weir mcmanus or whoever are injured come the time of the competitive matches itd be better to have Berra with a full 90 behind him if he is required.

[Noose76]

Gingermunkie, good post.

I fully agree with everything you say, and although I dont know as much about the Jacobite Rebellion, I have a decent knowledge which allows me to forge a factual opinion.

The fact of the matter is 1 line in the obsolete 6th verse of an outdated song, means nothing. How many English people do you think are aware of this verse, and how many do you think even pick up on what it is made out to be, by the likes of Ronaldo?

It's petty Scots who make something out of nothing here, dropping heavy words and phrases such as "racists", "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing".

[Carse of Gowrie Saint]

Interesting debate.

I think the anthem was booed because a large number of Scottish supporters support independence and GSTQ represents British rule in Scotland.

This constant drivel about being anti English/NI is wrong, if they both had their own anthems there wouldn't be a problem.

[Corned Beef]

rubbish, absolute rubbish.

it is about now, some want independance, some want to run our own country, some want away from westminster rule.

It is folk like you that stir the bigot thing up just because some people in this country want to be independant again.

You want the union fine, that is up to you, but do not call people racist/bigots because they want something different.

JUST BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DO NOT WANT TO BE RULED FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY DOES NOT MAKE THEM RACIST OR BIGOTS.

Now if you want to start on politics as monkfish does start another thread.

If people can't even bring themselves to type the word 'England', that shows to me it's more about being anti-english, than pro-independence. The type of people who rip into English folk but as soon as they start chuntering back, it's 'seee! typical English arrogance'.....

I'm non-plussed myself as to how Scotland is 'ruled' because if you think it would be much different if we were independent, you are deluded. We are joined at the hip with the rest of the UK and that's never going to change, regardless of who we vote for. This view through tartan tinted specs that independence is some holy grail to untold riches and freedom is a fairy tale.

Waaaay off topic though

[Ronaldo]

Mate dont ever become a lawyer.

My statement was correct.

The sixth verse has very rarely been used throughout its entire history. Who the hell sings to six verses of anything?! It is in fact not an original piece of the song, it was commisioned to be added by the very grateful german monarch whom Wade defended.

Besides the Scots who were crushed were a rag tag of french mercenries(sp?) and disgruntled scots clansmen who were worried their outdated fuedal system was being destroyed(it was and quite rightly). This force were terrorists trying to restore the Stuart dynasty which was notoriously decadent and much more oppressive than the Hannoverians who replaced them, Wade was defending the nation against these terrorists. Also Wade's force comprised of 80% scots, so dont give me all this English oppression bollocks. Many more scots fought for the Red Coat/British side as that was where the political current of the time went, the Jacobites were not a popular group. The jacobite rebbelion and how it sits within the wider context of British history is really far too complex to be refered to as a scotland vs english thing.

On a side note haveing just done a part of my degree on this time period its really interesting to look at the similariteis between the period of 'terror' carried out by the state against those tha they felt were a threat to the nation(ie highlanders and unfortunately catholics) and the so called 'war on terror' carried out against muslims and other religious minorities in the surrent climet(sp?). With the widespread discrimination, prejudice and distrust that it stirred among the common people - against scots then and muslims now.

If anyone is interested in this time period i highly recomend a couple of books, Britons: forging a nation by Linda Colley which looks at the merging of the parliments up until Queen Vic took over.

the other is by a bloke called richardson but cant rember the title but is something to effect of The Jacobite Rebbelion and Scotland.

Back to the real issue, was at the game and was dissapointed by the level of commitment shown by both sides. The passing from the scotland team was great particularly from fletcher in the first half, but the movement and drive seemed to be lacking a cutting edge. In the second half that 20-25minute period with the sending off and the penalty was great from both sides but neither side looked like they were ever going to win it. I know it was a friendly but really feel that all games sould be played as though you want to win them, otherwise whats the point. Also what was the point in playing Weir from the start with young Berra on the bench would have been a good chance to blood him in, just feel that if Weir mcmanus or whoever are injured come the time of the competitive matches itd be better to have Berra with a full 90 behind him if he is required.

In historical terms you are correct to say that the Highlanders were the rebellion, were mainly catholic then (the opposite now), did not support the German crown but a potential Stuart crown as the Jacobites in England did and that a large proportion of the Union army were Scottish lowlanders.

However I'm saying that it is wrong to have that in a nation's national anthem. It would be like the American national anthem celebrating the wiping out of the native Americans indigenous peoples. It would be considered arrogant, thick, triumphalist, simple and embarrassing. There must be a reason it's not taken out.

I think the British national anthem is unrepresentative, flawed and itotally out of date. I accept that simplistic, conformist, compartmentalised thinkers will follow it but then they'd probably conform in China too. These people need order without thinking too much. However it's not exactly 'Land Of The Free', it's more like "I hope God whoever he or she or it is saves our unelected posh (better than us) family who lead us (by visiting places around the country and world) ............. and wasn't it great how Marshall Wade massacred the Jacobite Scots (aye great for you sitting in London) and ........... so on ... and so on ". Wonderful, so quaint, the tourists will love it.

I mean c'mon it's a song for morons and is appropriate for a less free people who we can train to fight Zulus or something THIS NOT NOT THE 19th Century !!!!! It stands for an imperialist nation with an undeductaed people and makes me want to boo it.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[gingermunkie]

My statement was correct.

In historical terms you are correct to say that the Highlanders were the rebellion, were mainly catholic then (the opposite now), did not support the German crown but a potential Stuart crown as the Jacobites in England did and that a large proportion of the Union army were Scottish lowlanders.

However I'm saying that it is wrong to have that in a nation's national anthem. It would be like the American national anthem celebrating the wiping out of the native Americans indigenous peoples. It would be considered arrogant, thick, triumphalist, simple and embarrassing. There must be a reason it's not taken out.

I think the British national anthem is unrepresentative, flawed and itotally out of date. I accept that simplistic, conformist, compartmentalised thinkers will follow it but then they'd probably conform in China too. These people need order without thinking too much. However it's not exactly 'Land Of The Free', it's more like "I hope God whoever he or she or it is saves our unelected posh (better than us) family who lead us (by visiting places around the country and world) ............. and wasn't it great how Marshall Wade massacred the Jacobite Scots (aye great for you sitting in London) and ........... so on ... and so on ". Wonderful, so quaint, the tourists will love it.

I mean c'mon it's a song for morons and is appropriate for a less free people who we can train to fight Zulus or something THIS NOT NOT THE 19th Century !!!!! It stands for an imperialist nation with an undeductaed people and makes me want to boo it.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Its not been taken out because very few people actually care! There has never been a campaign to remove the verse, if there was then im sure the powers that be would remove it. Its the 6th verse of a song that probably doesnt ever get to more than two choruses and a verse other than, maybe at the last night of the proms.

Interestingly just come across a website that says it is in fact not even the anthem as it has never been ratified.(http://anthem4england.co.uk/modules/news/article.php?storyid=13)

Clearly you dont feel as though it is your anthem, therefore dont boo it, dont sing it dont acknowledge it, as a mark of respect for those who do feel it is theirs. And i you dont feel they deserve your respect, then thats not very nice.

[wee john]

If people can't even bring themselves to type the word 'England', that shows to me it's more about being anti-english, than pro-independence. The type of people who rip into English folk but as soon as they start chuntering back, it's 'seee! typical English arrogance'.....

I'm non-plussed myself as to how Scotland is 'ruled' because if you think it would be much different if we were independent, you are deluded. We are joined at the hip with the rest of the UK and that's never going to change, regardless of who we vote for. This view through tartan tinted specs that independence is some holy grail to untold riches and freedom is a fairy tale.

Waaaay off topic though

YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME, WHAT I THINK INDEPENDANCE WILL BRING US OR WHETHER I RIP INTO e***ish PEOPLE.

YOUR VIEWS ARE IGNORANT AND OFFENSIVE TO ME.

I WILL QUITE GLADLY ACCEPT YOUR APOLOGY THOUGH.

[wee john]

Interesting debate.

I think the anthem was booed because a large number of Scottish supporters support independence and GSTQ represents British rule in Scotland.

This constant drivel about being anti English/NI is wrong, if they both had their own anthems there wouldn't be a problem.

NOW THAT IS A GOOD POST BY SOMEONE WHO SEES IT FOR WHAT IT IS.

RACISM, ANTI e***ish, HATRED ARE ALL WORDS USED BY UNIONISTS WHO WANT TO DEGRADE FELLOW SCOTS.

I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANYONE WHO WANTS TO KEEP THE UNION AND WOULD NOT CALL OR DEGRADE THEM IN ANY WAY.

HOW ANYONE CAN COME TO THE CONCLUSION WE ARE ALL THESE THINGS AND MORE BECAUSE WE WANT TO GOVERN OURSELVES IS BEYOND ME. I WILL PUT IT DOWN TO PROPAGANDA (-: AS I WOULD NOT WANT TO CALL MY FELLOW COUNTRYMEN IGNORANT, INSULAR OR ANY OTHER DEROGITORY WORD.

[Noose76]

We get your point, John, no need to SHOUT!

It's a messageboard, full of opinions, so it's all good and anything is an accepted addition.

I personally dont think racism exists between the different nations, but maybe I'm not as sensitive as some.

[wee john]

We get your point, John, no need to SHOUT!

It's a messageboard, full of opinions, so it's all good and anything is an accepted addition.

I personally dont think racism exists between the different nations, but maybe I'm not as sensitive as some.

weegies are all sensitive.

i have bad eyesight and i can see it better in capitals.

how the hell do i get the wee smiley faces on? as there should be wee smiley faces after both the above statements.

[Noose76]

I only know of 3 smilies:

: wink : for

: D for

: ) for

delete the spaces between the : wink: for it to work

[Kevin]

I only know of 3 smilies:

: wink : for

: D for

: ) for

delete the spaces between the : wink: for it to work

There's also (without the spaces once again)

: shock : for

: roll : for

: p for

: evil : for

: mad : for

: cry : for

: ? : for

[Noose76]

is my favourite

[ryangordon86]

Mate dont ever become a lawyer.

The sixth verse has very rarely been used throughout its entire history. Who the hell sings to six verses of anything?! It is in fact not an original piece of the song, it was commisioned to be added by the very grateful german monarch whom Wade defended.

Besides the Scots who were crushed were a rag tag of french mercenries(sp?) and disgruntled scots clansmen who were worried their outdated fuedal system was being destroyed(it was and quite rightly). This force were terrorists trying to restore the Stuart dynasty which was notoriously decadent and much more oppressive than the Hannoverians who replaced them, Wade was defending the nation against these terrorists. Also Wade's force comprised of 80% scots, so dont give me all this English oppression bollocks. Many more scots fought for the Red Coat/British side as that was where the political current of the time went, the Jacobites were not a popular group. The jacobite rebbelion and how it sits within the wider context of British history is really far too complex to be refered to as a scotland vs english thing.

On a side note haveing just done a part of my degree on this time period its really interesting to look at the similariteis between the period of 'terror' carried out by the state against those tha they felt were a threat to the nation(ie highlanders and unfortunately catholics) and the so called 'war on terror' carried out against muslims and other religious minorities in the surrent climet(sp?). With the widespread discrimination, prejudice and distrust that it stirred among the common people - against scots then and muslims now.

If anyone is interested in this time period i highly recomend a couple of books, Britons: forging a nation by Linda Colley which looks at the merging of the parliments up until Queen Vic took over.

the other is by a bloke called richardson but cant rember the title but is something to effect of The Jacobite Rebbelion and Scotland.

Couldn't have put it better myself....

no really, I couldn't!

[Davey]

Still think that NI should do something about getting a National Anthem of their own QUOTE]

What like the sash or somethin?

I was at hampden on wednesday, an the reason i booed my head off was there were to many weegies/rangers fans outside askin in there broad glasgow accent, if we had any spare tickets for the ireland end!!

then the team lines got read out an they cheered all the rangers players(boyd,miller etc) an booed the likes of brown,robson!! now if thats not being a bigot what is?

so if they want to boo our players **** them....AND ENGLAND

[Ronaldo]

. And i you dont feel they deserve your respect, then thats not very nice.

I'm not stating any case for Scotland or Britain I'm saying the anthem is silly and for silly people. OK in this politically correct age maybe I'm disrespecting silly people, especially those that think it was a French army residing in the Highlands (very convenient), I'm just saying only nobends would sing this song that politicises God who should really be saving children around the world instead. which supports the monarchy and is very genuinely very silly. Oh verse 18 which says cockney wankers should be put into gas chambers if they speak any words in a daft accent doesn't mean the anthem's wrong because nobody ever sings it now anyway. Now any cockney that accepts that would be a wimp. Unfortunately we have these kind of Scots.

It's really sick to hear people justify it because there were some small amount of French troops or that the clan system was failing and they were worthless. A huge amount of these failed people emmigrated and became creators of the greatest nation on earth -the USA (no monarchy and no God in the constitution), and many of the remaining clans were desperately requested and desired for their bravery by generals in the British army over the next 200 years. By the way there were clans all around Perthshire and of course there were English Jacobites too which is why they reached Mansefield and Northampton.

It was the aftermath of Culloden which was evil not the battle itself. Ironically this British red coat army were later defeated by a bunch of farmers and land owning families in the American Revolution and I wonder who were amongst the rebels.

The anthem is silly and the lyrics are wrong.