Reflecting badly (Old Firm madness)

[The Neutral]

Of course the Celtic board dont want to do anything about Lennon's behaviour - they love it. Take sectarianism out of the equation and the OF would be nothing. Clubs make money out of having as big a fan base as possible so it is in Celtic's interest to 'stoke the fires' as much as possible. It's a horrible situation, but I feel that many of the anti-sectarian initiatives from the OF have (deliberately) been nothing more than 'just enough' to satisfy the authorities that they are tackling the problem. There will be lots of 'tutting' in public regarding Lennon's behaviour but plenty of back-slapping in private. Nothing will change unless the sanctions start to hit the OF where it hurts.

I am going to get annihilated for saying this BUT I am starting to believe that it is going to take a player or manager from either side of the OF being seriously injured or killed to bring it home to TPTB exactly how the behaviour and tactic, if unconscious, approval of sectarianism is affecting people. I do not believe that Martin Bain, David Murray hate catholics or that Dermot Desmond & Peter Lawell hate protestants but they are far removed from the day to day street level sectarianism that permeates Glasgow society that they probably do not notice it.

Lets not kid ourselves though. Most OF fans are not sectarian and will not kill the other side. They will rip the piss out of the other side at work when they win and get ripped when they lose. BUT they do not do anything to stop those who are sectarian and again the lack of action on their part again provides unconscious approval to those knuckledraggers who revel in it.

The other night McCoist and Lennon were both bang out of order, BUT 20 mins later the 2 of them were sitting down talking it over once things had calmed down. Which whilst all well and good was too late as the damage had been done and those who cannot separate the soap opera from real life had acted on it.

To give the fans a shock into the real world I would suggest that the clubs agree to play the 1st 2 games of next season behind closed doors. Announce it now so ST holders know this before buying and cannot complain after the fact. Make it a condition of ST holding that if you are caught signing anything from the Emerald Isle (wizard of oz songs are allowed) you lose your ticket for the rest of the year and do not get a refund. Make the clubs upgrade the CCTV to allow face recognition. Make all ticket applicants provide a photo when applying for tickets. That way anyone caught breaking rules can be identified and banned.

ST's will still get bought and once people start to see their friends getting turfed out it may bring it home to them that this can no longer be tolerated.

The OF could be good for Scottish football, BUT the time is now running out for them to be hated for being the biggest and best teams in Scotland rather than the biggest and best teams, WHO ABUSE THEIR POSITION (one more than the other at present), AND TRADE ON TACTIC SECTARIANISM.

I have refrained from using the word bigot because if you read the dictionary definition most football fans can be accused of bigotry at some point or other.

[blueheaven]

And did mccoist behave himself??

No - I didn't say that he did. But your post was sticking up for Lennon and I was responding to that. You've now tried to deflect away from the points I was making by essentially saying "but Rangers were doing it too", which is a textbook Old-Firm-supporter come-back (it saddens me that I know that - I've obviously been listening to too many Jim Traynor phone-ins).

So basically, you'll defend Lennon but not McCoist, yet when someone debates your point with you you suddenly want to speak about them both equally. Why have you not made the same points about McCoist's behaviour being excusable due to "passion"? Or made a point of telling us all about McCoist's charity work? You can't have it both ways. Actually, reading through your posts again, I'm not entirely sure what your point is, as a few posts back you excused Lennon's behaviour by saying he "is passionate for his club and sticks up for his squad, nothing wrong with that", but then you say "the 2 of them on Wednesday were out of order. They should never have got caught up in the heat of the moment."

Would you be pleased if Derek McInnes behaved the way Neil Lennon does?

[Real Madrid]

I am going to get annihilated for saying this BUT I am starting to believe that it is going to take a player or manager from either side of the OF being seriously injured or killed to bring it home to TPTB exactly how the behaviour and tactic, if unconscious, approval of sectarianism is affecting people. I do not believe that Martin Bain, David Murray hate catholics or that Dermot Desmond & Peter Lawell hate protestants but they are far removed from the day to day street level sectarianism that permeates Glasgow society that they probably do not notice it.

Lets not kid ourselves though. Most OF fans are not sectarian and will not kill the other side. They will rip the piss out of the other side at work when they win and get ripped when they lose. BUT they do not do anything to stop those who are sectarian and again the lack of action on their part again provides unconscious approval to those knuckledraggers who revel in it.

The other night McCoist and Lennon were both bang out of order, BUT 20 mins later the 2 of them were sitting down talking it over once things had calmed down. Which whilst all well and good was too late as the damage had been done and those who cannot separate the soap opera from real life had acted on it.

To give the fans a shock into the real world I would suggest that the clubs agree to play the 1st 2 games of next season behind closed doors. Announce it now so ST holders know this before buying and cannot complain after the fact. Make it a condition of ST holding that if you are caught signing anything from the Emerald Isle (wizard of oz songs are allowed) you lose your ticket for the rest of the year and do not get a refund. Make the clubs upgrade the CCTV to allow face recognition. Make all ticket applicants provide a photo when applying for tickets. That way anyone caught breaking rules can be identified and banned.

ST's will still get bought and once people start to see their friends getting turfed out it may bring it home to them that this can no longer be tolerated.

The OF could be good for Scottish football, BUT the time is now running out for them to be hated for being the biggest and best teams in Scotland rather than the biggest and best teams, WHO ABUSE THEIR POSITION (one more than the other at present), AND TRADE ON TACTIC SECTARIANISM.

I have refrained from using the word bigot because if you read the dictionary definition most football fans can be accused of bigotry at some point or other.

Why you think you will get annihilated I don't know but your post is the most sensible on the whole topic that I have read on this forum or any other.

There was a Dundee fan who got cut off on Traynors programme last night fro saying that all old firm fans were bigots but your point of view is correct. I may not like Bain or Lawell due to some of the things they say or do but do not believe that people could get to the positions they have if they were out and out bigots. The problem both teams have is they have attracted the worst in society and as you say if it keeps going this way a player or official will be seriously injured and if it happens on one side you can bet the other will try and get revenge.

The clubs need to act now before it goes too far.

[The Neutral]

Why you think you will get annihilated I don't know but your post is the most sensible on the whole topic that I have read on this forum or any other.

There was a Dundee fan who got cut off on Traynors programme last night fro saying that all old firm fans were bigots but your point of view is correct. I may not like Bain or Lawell due to some of the things they say or do but do not believe that people could get to the positions they have if they were out and out bigots. The problem both teams have is they have attracted the worst in society and as you say if it keeps going this way a player or official will be seriously injured and if it happens on one side you can bet the other will try and get revenge.

The clubs need to act now before it goes too far.

When it comes to discussing the OF with any semblance of sense does lend itself to Openshaw and his/her ilk decrying your argument with well worn platitudes without trying to examine solutions which could at the end of the day benefit all.

[ancientsaint]

Brilliant statement by dooofs agent today "what happens on the pitch -stays on the pitch.....cant wait for them all to kick feck oot of each other in the cup final

[mainstand]

No - I didn't say that he did. But your post was sticking up for Lennon and I was responding to that. You've now tried to deflect away from the points I was making by essentially saying "but Rangers were doing it too", which is a textbook Old-Firm-supporter come-back (it saddens me that I know that - I've obviously been listening to too many Jim Traynor phone-ins).

So basically, you'll defend Lennon but not McCoist, yet when someone debates your point with you you suddenly want to speak about them both equally. Why have you not made the same points about McCoist's behaviour being excusable due to "passion"? Or made a point of telling us all about McCoist's charity work? You can't have it both ways. Actually, reading through your posts again, I'm not entirely sure what your point is, as a few posts back you excused Lennon's behaviour by saying he "is passionate for his club and sticks up for his squad, nothing wrong with that", but then you say "the 2 of them on Wednesday were out of order. They should never have got caught up in the heat of the moment."

Would you be pleased if Derek McInnes behaved the way Neil Lennon does?

you ahould be a journalist!!

Two things:

1, I have already stated that Lennon was out or order, but where I do believe he is hard done by id the amount of crap that is flung in is direction. He moans a lot, so what, he probably moans no more than half the managers in the country but when he says anything it hits the headlines.

2. I am not trying to blame Rangers or say that if Rangers did it then it;s okay, what I am saying is that this last week has seen a number of people calling for lennons head but McCosit seems to have got off pretty well when it come to the flak from Wednesday.

I mentioned Lennons charity work cause something that I had never heard of until I read the SCi magazine, Iam sure MCCoist will do lots of work and good on him.

I would have no problem at all if Del behaved in the same way as Lennon but I would draw the line at the battle with Mccoist which I think overstepoped the mark. Verbals yes punches no.

[monkfish]

I wouldn't bother taking on Mainstand on anything relating to our emerald connected institutions.

[The Neutral]

I wouldn't bother taking on Mainstand on anything relating to our emerald connected institutions.

Is he the Wonderful Wizard of Oz and rule the Emerald City? ::mrgreen:

[ancientsaint]

you ahould be a journalist!!

Two things:

1, I have already stated that Lennon was out or order, but where I do believe he is hard done by id the amount of crap that is flung in is direction. He moans a lot, so what, he probably moans no more than half the managers in the country but when he says anything it hits the headlines.

2. I am not trying to blame Rangers or say that if Rangers did it then it;s okay, what I am saying is that this last week has seen a number of people calling for lennons head but McCosit seems to have got off pretty well when it come to the flak from Wednesday.

I mentioned Lennons charity work cause something that I had never heard of until I read the SCi magazine, Iam sure MCCoist will do lots of work and good on him.

I would have no problem at all if Del behaved in the same way as Lennon but I would draw the line at the battle with Mccoist which I think overstepoped the mark. Verbals yes punches no.

Re point Number One........Lennons "fiancee" looks quite happy -do you think she moans too !

Other points......Every football club encourages their staff to actively participate in local / national charites as well as community involvement...its nothing new and not solely down to one person or club.

[Wish i was Joe McGurn]

I am just surprised tht the pope hasn't made any comment. Everyone else has

[wee john]

I am just surprised tht the pope hasn't made any comment. Everyone else has

Aye everyone else is getting their tuppence worth.

trouble every week the length and breadth of e***and, and our government call a summit at more expense to the taxpayer BECAUSE OF A BIT OF HANDBAGS AT AN OF MATCH.

a wee bit OTT.

[ancientsaint]

Aye everyone else is getting their tuppence worth.

trouble every week the length and breadth of e***and, and our government call a summit at more expense to the taxpayer BECAUSE OF A BIT OF HANDBAGS AT AN OF MATCH.

a wee bit OTT.

are they not classed as MAN bags nowadays ??

[Broon]

Aye everyone else is getting their tuppence worth.

trouble every week the length and breadth of e***and, and our government call a summit at more expense to the taxpayer BECAUSE OF A BIT OF HANDBAGS AT AN OF MATCH.

a wee bit OTT.

Not really. What choice did the government have when the Police made an official complaint to government - they have to discuss it. Plus, these two clubs are costing the country tens of millions of pounds a year in policing/A&E and court fees! It cannot continue. If they cannot sort their own behaviour out then they need to start paying to clean up the mess.

[wee john]

Not really. What choice did the government have when the Police made an official complaint to government - they have to discuss it. Plus, these two clubs are costing the country tens of millions of pounds a year in policing/A&E and court fees! It cannot continue. If they cannot sort their own behaviour out then they need to start paying to clean up the mess.

the clubs are not costing the country tens of millions, that is newspaper tosh.

morons cost the country tens of million.

blaming it on one football match is covering up the real social problems in this country.

policing football south of the border will cost the country many more millions than it does up here.

[wee john]

Not really. What choice did the government have when the Police made an official complaint to government - they have to discuss it. /QUOTE]

It got brought up at parliment by Annabell Goldie, that is why it got disscussed at government level.

[The Neutral]

the clubs are not costing the country tens of millions, that is newspaper tosh.

morons cost the country tens of million.

blaming it on one football match is covering up the real social problems in this country.

policing football south of the border will cost the country many more millions than it does up here.

In an interview with a senior police Strathclyde Police officer (not the union) he said that the football is being used as an excuse and that cheap alcohol is the main problem & that if the game was played behind closed doors those who cause the problems would find something else to latch onto. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS EXCUSES THE BEHAVIOUR ON THE PITCH, but even if both clubs were to come out today and ban the tricolor, the union flag, the from the emerald isle, it would not stop the problems.

Those who revel in beating their wives, children, random strangers in the street probably cannot understand the nuances of how their actions portray the clubs they claim to support and by extension Scotland.

Regarding Holyrood getting involved it is a fine line that they have to walk on that as any attempt from them to legislate and provide more than guidance could get Scottish Football as a whole into trouble with UEFA & FIFA. This has to be dealt with by the SFA, SPL and the police.

Edited March 8, 2011 by The Neutral

[mainstand]

I believe it was actually discussed between the first minister and the Chief Constable of Strathclyde on the morning after the match, it was at this point that there was a request for a meeting.

To put it as a "official complaint" Broon is I think exagerating it slightly.

[Broon]

I believe it was actually discussed between the first minister and the Chief Constable of Strathclyde on the morning after the match, it was at this point that there was a request for a meeting.

To put it as a "official complaint" Broon is I think exagerating it slightly.

Perhaps. However, if you phone the First Minister and complain about the behaviour of the Old Firm and request a meeting to discuss it you have to ask at what point this becomes 'official'? Taking into consideration their respective positions and the outcome I'd hardly call it idle chit chat!

Edited March 8, 2011 by Broon

[Edstar101]

Pillow talk

[Honest Saints Fan]

e***and

3 stars this week

Most.Pathetic.Thing.Ever!

[wee john]

in e***nd the police cost every weekend must cost hundreds of thousands every weekend.

that is just police cost, not the extras, the wife beating, the fight injuries, the NHS cost.

the problem is far far worse in general down there.

[Edstar101]

I agree with a lot of your points John, but comparison with England is not the issue - two wrongs don't make a right. What is the point is getting things right in Scotland - although, like I say, I agree with you on some points, one being a bit of over-reaction in some quarters - but that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem that shouldn't be addressed, appropriately

[Broon]

in e***nd the police cost every weekend must cost hundreds of thousands every weekend.

that is just police cost, not the extras, the wife beating, the fight injuries, the NHS cost.

the problem is far far worse in general down there.

I agree its worse in England - they are a country with 10x the population of Scotland which hosts much larger sporting events. We're lucky in a way that we have one fixutre that causes the most of the chaos because its an easier problem to tackle. They cannot attribute a cost to single football matches like we can but that gives us an advantage.

We should restrict these two to playing twice per season in the League, that would save a few quid. The government money saved from the fallout costs of an Old Firm game could be put into a Football development fund and we could all get the 16 team league we want. The SPL should then step in and slam the clubs for behaviour of players and technical staff during all games and if the players are seen to be inciting the crowd then there should be the threat of severe punishments.

[wee john]

your right but the point i am making is that to have a summit on this, then should there not be a summit for football in general.

the way the common man reads into this is that the OF match is the only problem, which is certainly not true.

some people are amazed by the supposed figures, they would be more amazed if they knew what e***ish football really cost the taxpayer.

one more point too, they make up these figures about what it costs the taxpayer for an OF match.

How much money does the economy get from a match like this?

many many a business will benefit form the match, travel, pubs, food outlets, hotels and more, contributing alot to the economy.

but that is not sensational news.

[wee john]

I agree its worse in England - they are a country with 10x the population of Scotland which hosts much larger sporting events. We're lucky in a way that we have one fixutre that causes the most of the chaos because its an easier problem to tackle. They cannot attribute a cost to single football matches like we can but that gives us an advantage.

We should restrict these two to playing twice per season in the League, that would save a few quid. The government money saved from the fallout costs of an Old Firm game could be put into a Football development fund and we could all get the 16 team league we want. The SPL should then step in and slam the clubs for behaviour of players and technical staff during all games and if the players are seen to be inciting the crowd then there should be the threat of severe punishments.

far too sensible broon:laugh: