ODAB Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Merely questioning this bizarre notion that Jordan Rhodes is an international saviour. He was presented with two fantastic chances and missed them both. He has barely played in the championship and yet some are suggesting he should be an absolute nail on for a starters spot. There have been numerous players who have scored for fun at a lower level and not been able to step-up to a higher level. Whilst I think he can step-up it would be wrong to think he could do it straight away. He needs time to work on many aspects of his game before I think he will make a solid impact at this level. Now whether his strengths to weakness ratio is better than Miller's is debatable but you also have to consider what is most beneficial for his development. People continue to look for short term solutions to what is a long term problem. Doesn't matter if we have Levein or Guardiola on the bench when the players lack basic skills. Until we change the culture of football in this country it is irrelevant who sits on the bench. nips 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 An ye knew yer fitba (BTW they dinnae play any at Tannadice) ye'd know that a lad wi an eye for goal like that will score at any level if hes given the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nips Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 An ye knew yer fitba (BTW they dinnae play any at Tannadice) ye'd know that a lad wi an eye for goal like that will score at any level if hes given the chance. What a load of tripe. I remember when Kenny Miller would score for fun in the Championship but when it came to Scotland games he'd miss numerous sitters. You could argue Stevie May showed last season he has an eye for goal. Get him in the Scotland squad. Oh, wait, he can't even get in the Saints squad at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Smith and McCleish didn't walk away, they took better jobs. Maybe in terms of pay I agree but not in terms of importance. You can't get better than managing a national team with all its resources and fan base back to the World Cup Finals like Willie Ormond, Ally MacLeod, Jock Stein, Alex Ferguson, Andy Roxburgh and Craig Brown did - famous. Alex just went to Birmingham City and they got relegated and Walter went to a job where he had 50% chance of winning a domestic trophy, although he did well getting Rangers to the EUFA Final.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 An ye knew yer fitba (BTW they dinnae play any at Tannadice) ye'd know that a lad wi an eye for goal like that will score at any level if hes given the chance. Like Kenny Deuchar will score at any level? Like Alfonso Alves will score at any level? Like Kris Boyd will score at any level? You're pathetic attempts to make this about United aside, there are hundreds of strikers that simply couldn't cut it at a higher level. There are also hundreds examples of young players being put in too early and too much pressure put on them. And the simple fact is that Rhodes is not a world beater and requires service. The service was poor because of the basic skills Brittish players in general lack. There are next to no players in the whol of Britain that have the technical skills that Pandev has at his disposal. Steven Fletcher is argualbly the best striker we have in this country (despite the obvious problme he has refused to play for his country and the fact he is incredibly over-rated) but you can't seriously suggest we would have been guaranteed results in these two games if he had played. So why so many think Jordan Rhodes would have been a sure fire to have made a difference is beyond me. He lacks basic skills in his link up play and positioning. He has the potential to be a great striker but is young and exceptionally raw. And with the lack of creativity and techinal ability that Scottish players have, we need a player with some all round ability to help keep possesion and move us up the field. Personally I wouldn't have played either Rhodes or Miller up top, and would have went with either Mackie or McCormack but again it would have been much of a muchness. Levein hasn't been awe-inspiring for sure but he is not the major fault in what we have seen at international level. The football culture of this backwards country is at fault along with the chronic underfunding of facilities. The scandanavian nations noticed that 20 years ao and did something about it. We didn't hence why we are where we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 (edited) On the subject of Miller/Rhodes - If we're going to use aimlessly hoofing the ball at a lone striker tactics I'd rather said striker was more of a target man with a bit of physical presence about him, and one who's not gonna have retired by the time the tournament we're trying to qualify for comes around. Say what you will about some players not being able to cut it at International level but Rhodes' scoring record surely warrants giving him a chance? And I wouldn't call bringing him on once we've run out of ideas much of a chance. On the subject of Levein - I really liked him when he was at Utd but as time goes on the alarm bells keep getting louder. He made a pig's ear of the last qualifying campaign and on the recent evidence he's planning a similar sequel. I'm not a fan of the high manager turnover involved in the modern game but something drastic needs to change about the way we play and Avril seems pretty set in his ways. Edited September 16, 2012 by Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad saints fan Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I actually still can't get my head around how he was in the running for the job in the first place, he clearly hasn't got the skills on and off the pitch to lead us to glory. He's fallen out and alienated numerous players, lost the majority of the fans and is just plain out of his depth. He ****ed up the Euro qualifiers which apart from Spain should have been a walk in the park, you only had to watch the Czech's in the tournament to see how crap they really were...one of the worst teams I've ever witnessed at a tournament. Now in this qualifying stage he's got us playing scared, playing like we're the Faroe Islands, like we're the underdog!! His comments after the Serbia game were unacceptable. When asked about why we didn't attack the whole game like we did in the last 15 minutes, he admitted we did look going better going forward and created numerous chances BUT look at Serbia, it allowed them to play and attack us. OK Levein, I'll admit they did get a couple of counter attacks on the go but they never looked like scoring with them! meanwhile we were bombarding their half and looked like the only team capable of scoring. That's how it's meant to be for the majority of the game when you have a squad full of quality and you're playing at home in front of the tartan army! Then to go into a must win game against Macedonia and be telling the press that we have to be cautious because they're a very good side....bullshit!! it's ****in Macedonia!! get right into them!! enough of this press/media friendly shite about showing the other team respect, show you have a pair you lanky streak of pish!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I actually still can't get my head around how he was in the running for the job in the first place, he clearly hasn't got the skills on and off the pitch to lead us to glory. He's fallen out and alienated numerous players, lost the majority of the fans and is just plain out of his depth. He ****ed up the Euro qualifiers which apart from Spain should have been a walk in the park, you only had to watch the Czech's in the tournament to see how crap they really were...one of the worst teams I've ever witnessed at a tournament. Now in this qualifying stage he's got us playing scared, playing like we're the Faroe Islands, like we're the underdog!! His comments after the Serbia game were unacceptable. When asked about why we didn't attack the whole game like we did in the last 15 minutes, he admitted we did look going better going forward and created numerous chances BUT look at Serbia, it allowed them to play and attack us. OK Levein, I'll admit they did get a couple of counter attacks on the go but they never looked like scoring with them! meanwhile we were bombarding their half and looked like the only team capable of scoring. That's how it's meant to be for the majority of the game when you have a squad full of quality and you're playing at home in front of the tartan army! Then to go into a must win game against Macedonia and be telling the press that we have to be cautious because they're a very good side....bullshit!! it's ****in Macedonia!! get right into them!! enough of this press/media friendly shite about showing the other team respect, show you have a pair you lanky streak of pish!! You've put into words everything I've said about what is wrong with our game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I refer to a point of view I made in the Scotland v Macedonia thread If Rhodes had been on from the start, he could have settled into the game. Coming on when he did puts extra pressure on him as the crowd were calling for him and he must have felt an expectation to produce the winner. Had a couple of chances that if he had been on longer I think he would have taken. He also won some nice knock-on's and played some clever through balls. You really are an annoying, pompous git and for some reason feel the need to back up Levein purely because of his former association with your club, while doing so in an irrating superior way If you actually read what I've said you'll note I'm not actually claiming Levein has done everything right or indeed he is a wonderful manager. The point I am making is that the problem lies with our footballing culture and the problems we all know have existed for years. The individual players or managers that are available are much of a muchness and regardless of which individual choices anyone person feels would be the best, the fundamental problems are not going to go away. It is you who is making feeble references to United and it is amazing that anybody who dares to argue a point is pompous. But hey ho some people are just like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryangordon86 Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Maybe in terms of pay I agree but not in terms of importance. You can't get better than managing a national team with all its resources and fan base back to the World Cup Finals like Willie Ormond, Ally MacLeod, Jock Stein, Alex Ferguson, Andy Roxburgh and Craig Brown did - famous. Alex just went to Birmingham City and they got relegated and Walter went to a job where he had 50% chance of winning a domestic trophy, although he did well getting Rangers to the EUFA Final.. You are thinking like a fan, people in the game don't think like fans. McCleish wanted to test himself against the best in the world, people like Mourinho, Ferguson and Wenger. Smith was never going to say no to Rangers, they are his team. I'd take any of them back in a heartbeat, probably wee Gordon too You also have to factor in that most managers enjoy the day to day nature of club managent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 You are thinking like a fan, people in the game don't think like fans. McCleish wanted to test himself against the best in the world, people like Mourinho, Ferguson and Wenger. Smith was never going to say no to Rangers, they are his team. I'd take any of them back in a heartbeat, probably wee Gordon too You also have to factor in that most managers enjoy the day to day nature of club managent. Would any of them take it though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYellowBox Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 If the comments I have heard attributed to Levein about Jordan Rhodes today are true, then he is even more of a knob than I thought. Effectively suggesting he is over-rated and not international standard. While I agree that £8m is crazy money, that is clearly the going rate. For a 21 year old to hear your international manager talk you down must be pretty disheartening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rik2304 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Should have been instantly sacked for the 4-6-0 debacle. If Rhodes isn't yet ready, then surely Miller is past it and in semi-retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickDT Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 If the comments I have heard attributed to Levein about Jordan Rhodes today are true, then he is even more of a knob than I thought. Effectively suggesting he is over-rated and not international standard. While I agree that £8m is crazy money, that is clearly the going rate. For a 21 year old to hear your international manager talk you down must be pretty disheartening. He never said anything of the sort, rather he pointed out that he was still young and shouldn't be placed under too much expectation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 He never said that. he siad that the price tag alone doesn't make a player and that he has a lot to learn before he can handle all the pressures of leading the line at international level. The inmates are running the asylum and Levein's position is becoming untenable because of the daily attacks from the press. So who will be the next Scapegoat in 4 years time when we are still in exactly yhe same position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) He never said that. he siad that the price tag alone doesn't make a player and that he has a lot to learn before he can handle all the pressures of leading the line at international level. The inmates are running the asylum and Levein's position is becoming untenable because of the daily attacks from the press. So who will be the next Scapegoat in 4 years time when we are still in exactly yhe same position? Levein's position is becoming untenable because he has won only 3 out of 10 competitive matches with a 43.3% success rate. in that time we have beaten Liechtenstein twice and Lithuania once. Is that acceptable? You saying we should have kept Berti? His record was better 48.8%. Edited September 17, 2012 by john1962 HOODLUM65 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rik2304 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Because of our limited player/talent pool we need a manager who can manage our resources better. Fairly blood the young prospects and not take the hump should another player act up a bit. Cutting off Fletcher sends the wrong message. There is a big difference between a dressing down, hair dryer treatment and cutting off your nose to spite your face. Fletcher is 25 and will be brought back when Levein goes. Suckley it up Craig. He may save your job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstar101 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Bollocks....at 21 you feel like you could rule the world. Stick a lad like that with his confidence and ability on at the start of a Scotland game and he would feckin LOVE IT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Is it acceptable? Yes. Is it ideal? No. You could equally point out we've only been beaten by the best International side of all time and away to the Czechs, who narrowly with the help of great fortune in terms of a penalty pipped us to second place. Levein hasn't done a great job but he's not been disasterous or committed any "crimes" against Scottish football. The bottom line is the players lack basic technique and skills as a result of the complete lack of foresight that has plagued this countries football since the 80's. I remember in the mid 90's everybody complaining about the lack of facilities, training methods and the fact that Scottish players don't compare with continental players in terms of technique. 20 years on and what has changed? Well only the name of the Scotland manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Bollocks....at 21 you feel like you could rule the world. Stick a lad like that with his confidence and ability on at the start of a Scotland game and he would feckin LOVE IT Part of the issue is we aren't getting to find out as Avril is so intransigent. Could anyone be worse than Miller was in the two games as Hampden. And its not just Rhodes, Mackie could play up front as could Mackail-Smith but no one is getting a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Is it acceptable? Yes. Is it ideal? No. You could equally point out we've only been beaten by the best International side of all time and away to the Czechs, who narrowly with the help of great fortune in terms of a penalty pipped us to second place. Levein hasn't done a great job but he's not been disasterous or committed any "crimes" against Scottish football. The bottom line is the players lack basic technique and skills as a result of the complete lack of foresight that has plagued this countries football since the 80's. I remember in the mid 90's everybody complaining about the lack of facilities, training methods and the fact that Scottish players don't compare with continental players in terms of technique. 20 years on and what has changed? Well only the name of the Scotland manager. How long would you give him then? Looking at our performances we can rule Rio out so does he get another qualifying campaign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferg Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 At the moment if I was given a straight choice between either Levein or Fletcher being involved in our next game i would say Fletcher. Managers are ten a penny compared to top quality Scottish Internationalist strikers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 If we started the campaign with Guardiola in charge and Steven Fletcher bright eyed and bushy taled I still wouldn't expect us to qualify out of this group. It could happen but it is and always was unlikely. Belgium and Croatia are much better than us. Serbia and Macedonia are tehnically much better than us. There isn't a single easy game in the group for us. And that is due to the uderlying problems we have in this country. They aren't going to go away over night unless we appoint Harry Potter. I would give Levein til the end of the campaign, as I would for any manager. But what we have to accept is that we are no longer anybody in iternational football. The TV money has evolved football, both for the good and the bad, and the game has changed but we haven't. We are a small country with poor facilities, climate, coaching and culture. That is why we are where we are. Short term fixes don't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) At the moment if I was given a straight choice between either Levein or Fletcher being involved in our next game i would say Fletcher. Managers are ten a penny compared to top quality Scottish Internationalist strikers. He scored on average 10 goals each season in the Premier League whilst playing on average 32 games. He's not exacly a proven international striker. He is probably the best we've got but he's not going to single handidly change things. Edited September 17, 2012 by ODAB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 If we started the campaign with Guardiola in charge and Steven Fletcher bright eyed and bushy taled I still wouldn't expect us to qualify out of this group. It could happen but it is and always was unlikely. Belgium and Croatia are much better than us. Serbia and Macedonia are tehnically much better than us. There isn't a single easy game in the group for us. And that is due to the uderlying problems we have in this country. They aren't going to go away over night unless we appoint Harry Potter. I would give Levein til the end of the campaign, as I would for any manager. But what we have to accept is that we are no longer anybody in iternational football. The TV money has evolved football, both for the good and the bad, and the game has changed but we haven't. We are a small country with poor facilities, climate, coaching and culture. That is why we are where we are. Short term fixes don't work. I dont disagree with a lot you have said there however we are making absolutely no progress at international level and if anything we are going backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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