#15 - 29/10/11 - Saints 0-1 St Mirren - SPL

[Wish i was Joe McGurn]

The spl brought a plan in that if you have a certain amount of U21 players in your team then they pay you to do so. I think its £1000 per game if you have three in the team, including subs. £500 for two.

It's a source of revenue that saints use.

[Widge]

The spl brought a plan in that if you have a certain amount of U21 players in your team then they pay you to do so. I think its £1000 per game if you have three in the team, including subs. £500 for two.

It's a source of revenue that saints use.

It's only if they play a certain number of minutes IIRC, the under 21 rule has to be done, saints get no revenue from that and since we never use the under 21, means we dont get any cash most of the time.

[Tricky6]

Ok done a bit of googling and the rule is must be three in the squad of 18, we're suffering on the bench because we've got no starting 11 U-21's basically..

[Wish i was Joe McGurn]

Team = squad

[Sheffield Saintie]

Which one of you came in your tractor today? That was the highlight of the day for me, when I followed a big red tractor out of the car park,with the driver sat on top with his Saints scarf on. Enhanced our reputation no end.

Well, what can I say, I made my non football supporting family stay in Perth til today so I could go and watch my beloved team. None of them are now speaking to me.

I haven't seen much of Saints lately, but was very disappointed with the performance today.

However, I still love you Saints (I think)

[mainstand]

It's only if they play a certain number of minutes IIRC, the under 21 rule has to be done, saints get no revenue from that and since we use the under 21, means we dont get any cash most of the time.

As you say the under 21 rule as you still applies.

The spl brought a plan in that if you have a certain amount of U21 players in your team then they pay you to do so. I think its £1000 per game if you have three in the team, including subs. £500 for two.

It's a source. of revenue that saints use.

We only get money from the SFA if the players play. Sitting on the bench doesn;t count,

The Scottish Football Association will pay clubs for including Scottish under-21 players in their starting line-up.

The £500,000 initiative, which applies to competitive games, is designed to encourage youth development.

Scottish Premier League clubs will receive £750 if they include two under-21 players in their team and £1,000 if three qualifying players start.

Scottish Football League clubs will receive £75 and £100 rewards under the same terms.

"This Performance Awards Scheme is about the long-term development of talented young Scottish players and will provide an incentive to SPL and SFL clubs to give these players an extended run in the first team," said SFA chief executive Stewart Regan.

"Today's announcement is part of our long-term performance strategy, with the aim of improving the overall standard of football in the country and, ultimately, restoring the Scotland national teams to major championship finals."

The incentive scheme is a similar to one that was introduced in English county cricket, where Regan made his name as an administrator.

Edited October 29, 2011 by mainstand

[HertsSaintee]

A replay of the cup game. St. Mirren were the better side - faster, slick passing, bossed the midfield. I don't think Wright staying on would have made a difference. Sometimes the other side are just better. Second defeat from them in a few weeks is no fluke I'm afraid

I think you give St Mirren too much credit. The truth is that that was a woeful game full of mistakes from both sides - we were simply worse than they were. Even Danny Lennon admitted as much in his full time interview. We looked like a rudderless ship yesterday, and needed somebody on the side shaking them up. Cleland's body language reminds me of Stark. Thought I was having a nightmare flashback.

[Saint Ziggy Stardust]

Which one of you came in your tractor today? That was the highlight of the day for me, when I followed a big red tractor out of the car park,with the driver sat on top with his Saints scarf on.

Anyone get a photo of this?

[Saint Ziggy Stardust]

I think too much of an issue is made about booing sometimes. It's not something I would do but if people are booing, some of themare doing it for what they see as the right reason. They want the best for Saints and get angry and annoyed when it's not happening. Maybe the "manager" should say to the players: "Did you hear that booing today? Take a look at yourselves and ask yourself did I give my ****ing all? If not, go out and show the bastards next week." That way something positive can come from it.

[Broon]

Thought the two teams were poor but St Mirren opted for a high hump up the middle. Not sure which game you guys were watching, st Mirren completely changed their tactics today.

We had the better chances but a draw would have been fair. Defeat was pretty harsh but those are the breaks if you don't play well.

[Pop]

Thought the two teams were poor but St Mirren opted for a high hump up the middle. Not sure which game you guys were watching, st Mirren completely changed their tactics today.

IWe had the better chances but a draw would have been fair. Defeat was pretty harsh but those are the breaks if you don't play well.

I don't think were played off the park or anything and they weren't as systematically dogmatic as they have been in the last 2 games, but they were definitely moving the ball a lot more effectively than we were. I thought we looked like the away team for most of the first half

[Radford 72]

Sometimes a team has a bad day at the office and you just have to write it off. I think the 2-0 defeat at Inverness last season was one of those occasions. On other occasions, you have to ask yourself if everyone who has an input has done all they can to secure a result. No matter how you are doing in the bigger picture, if the answer is no then criticism can be justified. Yesterday I didn't come away from the ground feeling we'd done everything we could to win that game.

We know the players and management (or as near to it as we have at the moment) work hard in the lead up to games but I suspect a lot of our preparation was based around St Mirren lining up as they have done for most of the season, 4-5-1/4-3-3 with an emphasis on keeping possession. I think one look at their team sheet hinted they might be altering that but to me it looked as if we went out there unaware of that and it told in the early stages where we struggled to get out of our own half. The problem wasn't the way St Mirren caught us cold though, it was that the manager appeared to do nothing about it and as a result, I felt we never really got into the match. It was a shadow of the sort of performance we've become accustomed to this season.

The players could still have done better yesterday IMO (some more than others) but the lack of guidance from the bench was alarming. McInnes and Docherty would have been right in about the players early doors and would have made some sort of tactical switch at half-time but there seemed to be nothing from Cleland. If he had no chance of the job on Friday, I think Jimmy Saville probably has more hope now. We need to get a manager in place this week and, like others, I've been a bit disappointed by how long this whole process has taken, especially when everyone was so convinced that Geoff Brown would have someone in mind to replace McInnes. Were all his eggs in one basket with Cook?

That is two poor performances in a row from Kevin Moon now as well and Murray Davidson has to come back in against Aberdeen, with Gibson back on the bench. Big mistake not having him on it yesterday. I hope the players in the team aren't getting too comfortable as well. They deserve their jerseys at the moment but if one or two bad results become three or four, the new manager needs to be prepared to give others a chance.

Hopefully the next thing we read on the official site is an announcement of a new manager.

[Deek]

We know the players and management (or as near to it as we have at the moment) work hard in the lead up to games but I suspect a lot of our preparation was based around St Mirren lining up as they have done for most of the season, 4-5-1/4-3-3 with an emphasis on keeping possession. I think one look at their team sheet hinted they might be altering that but to me it looked as if we went out there unaware of that and it told in the early stages where we struggled to get out of our own half. The problem wasn't the way St Mirren caught us cold though, it was that the manager appeared to do nothing about it and as a result, I felt we never really got into the match. It was a shadow of the sort of performance we've become accustomed to this season.

Danny Lennon's tactics completely outfoxed our management team. Especially early in the game.

McGowan was playing behind their two strikers and our midfield were all over the place trying to pick people up. For a while Liam was trying to pick McGowan up, leaving acres of space down the right for St Mirren.

St Mirren were getting good quality, early balls into the box and on another day we might well have got a doing.

That said, St Mirren were only marginally better than us. 2nd game in a row where almost the whole team have under performed, things looking very disorganised and the team lacking in leadership.

[BlueJ]

Danny Lennon's tactics completely outfoxed our management team.

That's one of the most embarrassing thing's I've ever read about Saints.

[mapleleaf]

Losing a manager of Del's quality is bound to cause a bit of confusion, particularly as his replacements seem to be inexperienced in carrying out the job.

A player/manager set up is unlikely to work in a game that has become so highly technical. As for Mr. Cleland, I don't know if he has enough managemnt experience to lead a team in the SPL.

Saints have demonstrated this short season that they can compete well in the league, so it would seem urgent to get in a manager who will take over from Del, a manager who can continue to develop players and can put in place a system that works with the talent he has.

Smudge

[andrew]

That's one of the most embarrassing thing's I've ever read about Saints.

The high tempo, high energy which would have won us the game yesterday was mostly absent. Amazing how having no manager can affect a group of players.

[monkfish]

That's one of the most embarrassing thing's I've ever read about Saints.

It's happened twice now because he did Del in the cup game as well!

Looked like a team badly in need of direction and the Clelland / Jody double act isn't working - Clelland should clearly be in charge on match day as Jody can't manage while playing. Didn't look like this was the case though, as it appeared that Clelland was deferring to Jody...at least I think he must have been as I can't imagine he'd be so passive if he was properly in charge.

[BlueJ]

The high tempo, high energy which would have won us the game yesterday was mostly absent. Amazing how having no manager can affect a group of players.

I'd actually thought about that. Instead of 'poor players, no manager' you could ask why they didn't get their fingers out and play as they normally do. Apart from anything they didn't have a clue who was watching them from the stands.

[Radford 72]

It's happened twice now because he did Del in the cup game as well!

McInnes did himself in the cup match IMO. Can start to understand playing Higgins to occupy Goodwin but surely the second you pencil that down, you realise it's going to leave us badly exposed in midfield. Absolutely shocking management that night. Danny Lennon couldn't have picked a Saints team better suited to playing against his own side if he'd been allowed to. McInnes would have fallen into the same trap as Cleland did yesterday (I doubt anyone was expecting St Mirren to line up as they did) but the difference is he would have reacted to it.

If Cleland is good with the U19s he should be back doing that as soon as possible.

[monkfish]

Hmmm not sure if I agree, it was pretty obvious in the cup game what the problems were and he took ages to change it, and then still got it wrong.

So, yes Clelland's big error was not reacting, but I'm not convinced Del would have reacted correctly (although he probably would at least have tried to do something).

[Radford 72]

I'd actually thought about that. Instead of 'poor players, no manager' you could ask why they didn't get their fingers out and play as they normally do.

Because I genuinely think for a large part of the game, they didn't know what they were meant to be doing, as evidenced by the number of times the ball went backwards. I know folk say Morris can be negative but I struggle to ever recall a game where we have gone backwards so often. Actually lost count of the times we'd have a shy thirty yards from their goal and within a few passes the ball would be back at Enckelman's feet.

Again, fair enough, we were caught cold by St Mirren but Cleland had to react to that and appeared to me to do nothing. The tempo and energy wasn't close to being a match for theirs but you can't close someone down quickly if you don't know who it is you are meant to be going towards.

Players could still have done more but it would have made little difference without direction from the bench. As someone has just pointed out in another thread, the game is so technical now that players rely on guidance from the bench and there seemed to be none yesterday and then after the match, all we hear is about the seventh or eighth interview with Cleland begging for the job. Enthusiasm turned into desperation about four days ago.

[andrew]

I'd actually thought about that. Instead of 'poor players, no manager' you could ask why they didn't get their fingers out and play as they normally do. Apart from anything they didn't have a clue who was watching them from the stands.

I wasn't meaning any criticism of the team, just an observation that we weren't in their faces and so gave them time and space to dictate the match.

[Center Half]

I read in two papers yesterday that St Mirren were going to change to basically route one balls into the box, now i know you do not beleive what you read in the papers but surley when hatchet Harry Jim goodwin says it and is quoted i would have had it in the back of my mind that a change of tatics could be on.

The players on the park never ackowledged to Cleland at all, WTF do you pull Liam off for the second week in row and leave the Left side totally without a presence in mid field. The sooner the players know who the manager is the better so they have someone to impress in training etc.

[Topfitter]

I seldom post and am a relative new forum member, but a 270 mile round trip to watch that abysmal performance requires a judgement.

1 If the team were playing to the manager's tactics then "He" not they must take the lion's share of the blame.

2 To risk a player carrying an obvious injury to me is clutching at straws, obviously no plan "B" the manager was confident in.

3 A competent keeper, solid defence and the leagues up and coming strike partnership held back by Jody and The Clones in a see who can be most negative show complemented by an enthusiastic, athletic, attack-minded midfielder with a dubious first touch.

4 Just looks like the interim management team hope playing the same boys time and again will get them through and they are unable to think for themselves. Perhaps they think this loyalty, to them, will limp them into the job.

5 Think Gibson and Haber must hope for injuries to see any significant game time before a Manager is appointed, and if Alec, keep well wrapped up during the winter whilst watching from the bench.

This is not the type of football to keep me coming back, and in these uncertain financial times decisions need to be made, by The Club and also supporters.

[McD]

Thought we were out classed today.

We were completely dominated in midfield. I have nothing against either Moon or Morris, but they should never be in the team together. They left the front 2 looking far too isolated. Moon really hasn't looked at the races over the last couple of games and I was surprised he even started. He's a better player than evidenced over the last couple of weeks Only when MD came on did we look like we were matching them and picking up the 50/50's.

Say what you like about St Mirren's "Barcelona" system, but I'd rather have their slick passing game than the root 1 nonsense we trying. The direct ball was simply leading to Cillian Sheridan flick-ons to no one and did nothing to advance our cause.

Going 4-3-3 at the end simply demonstrated that our players can't operate properly in anything other that a 4-4-2.

We need a manager.

Probably the best reply I've seen which echoes my thoughts.

Davidson's tenacity and drive when he came on was obvious and as long as he is here and fit should be chosen ahead of M&M. Jody and Mooner are very similar, can hold up but terrible at driving forward.

Pissed of for Encks, he made some good and one cracker of a save and deserved a clean sheet on 50th appearance.

Still 4th so lots to be positive about, but we definitely need a man in the hotseat for the next game to get a bit of direction going... don't think Lomas is the right man but would be delighted if I am proved wrong.

Whoever gets the job is a lucky man, I think this is as good a squad we've had since our last Euro adventure.