ANDY5565 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I cannot understand that, never could. But no they are not 'worse' as they at least take part in the collective and engage with the issues. this issue is as old as trade unionism, still waiting to hear an argument that justifies those who openly oppose and undermine collective action, then profit from it, yet we are supposed to dress up such conduct in language like 'rights' and 'choices' emptying these words of all meaning and power. grin and bear it,stiff upper lip and all that bolloques...part of the aristocratic coaching the humble to shut the fuque up...aristricrats and industrial ty****s = same keeque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newyear'sday97 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 He has a valid piont NYD97. .........why should he strike, lose pay and whatever else and mr X doesnt but still gets the benefits (if any) that the strike achieves............... He doesn't have to strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooj Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Non union members are maggots until they return the benefits the union wins for them, that is beyond reasonable argument. What would you call them? It is clearly a legal right not to be in the union, but where is the moral right to free load on the back of others sacrifice? Not personal, in that is applies to all those in that position. Is that too difficult for you to understand? You seem to assume that non-union members are not members because they want to exploit the good will of union members. I have been a union member for most of my working life and whenever the union called a strike I participated even though I rarely felt that the strike was justified. Then a couple of years ago, I was prevented (entirely unreasonably) from participating in a union meeting and a vote that was held during that meeting - I paid my fees but wasnt allowed to vote. I felt I had no choice but to resign from the Union. I resent the suggestion that this makes me a maggot. I bet there are lots of reasons why people arent union members and it may have nothing to do with self-interest and/or free loading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby kemp Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 He doesn't have to strike. He still has a point !!!! do you want him just to roll over and let them tickle his belly then say "run along wee man youve no pension, see you on monday." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDY5565 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 He still has a point !!!! do you want him just to roll over and let them tickle his belly then say "run along wee man youve no pension, see you on monday." yup! and why not give up working for a living when you can just work.if the boses could get away with it,they would Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgour Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I am now in the private sector having been made redundant from the public and I know who has their bread buttered the right way. As a union member I would urge you all to think before you strike as only a minority of members voted for it. If after a bit of thought you want to swap pensions please pm me.Hard times for us all even the cossetted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish i was Joe McGurn Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 The money ain't there. Simple as that. You can strike until the cows come home. Only difference is the public will hate you and see you as greedy. It's the minorities choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smarmy Arab Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 You seem to assume that non-union members are not members because they want to exploit the good will of union members. I have been a union member for most of my working life and whenever the union called a strike I participated even though I rarely felt that the strike was justified. Then a couple of years ago, I was prevented (entirely unreasonably) from participating in a union meeting and a vote that was held during that meeting - I paid my fees but wasnt allowed to vote. I felt I had no choice but to resign from the Union. I resent the suggestion that this makes me a maggot. I bet there are lots of reasons why people arent union members and it may have nothing to do with self-interest and/or free loading. I except every thing you say Dooj, unions are far from perfect, this is not an attack on anyone personally, just pointing out that many recieve the benefits of action without contributing to the union or the action, that is wrong which ever way you cut it, still waiting for anyone to address this point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smarmy Arab Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 He doesn't have to strike. No one 'has' to strike, but you don 'have' to take the resultant pay rise, pension, health and safety, improvement in conditions, and until these indivduals refuse these benefits they will remain beneath contempt and be reduced to sneeking in the back door and avoiding eye contact or conversation with those who have a pair! (apologies females!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I will 'have a go' at anyone who benefits from industrial action but refuses to take part as a policy...friend and colleague, or message board user. If you think the only reason anyone engages in industrial action is 'for yourself' then you should be made aware that some people think beyond the end of their nose! But then you would never use derogatory names would you...who is being holier than thou? Your ok with people who expect you to pay your union dues every month, then give up hundreds of pounds 3 weeks from Xmas after a 3 year pay freeze, (could go on longer)with inflation at 5.5 %, when they will benefit from the action? Freedom? choices? ffs! PARASITES! Oh sorry I've done it again! Smarby I don't know what you do or who you work for, I am not going to get involved in a slagging match or start throwing personal comments as we live in a democracy and you have the freedom to strike. I personally decided to leave the PCS union a few years ago, and will not be participating in this industrial action. I will lose out under the new pension arrangements but feel that what I will be receiving will still be acceptable to me. In addition to this I am also fortunate in that I can afford the additional contributions. I feel for some of my staff who have commitments and will not be geting a significant pension or lump sum. I will, however, be in my office ensuring that my work is being done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cagey Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Smarby I don't know what you do or who you work for, I am not going to get involved in a slagging match or start throwing personal comments as we live in a democracy and you have the freedom to strike. I personally decided to leave the PCS union a few years ago, and will not be participating in this industrial action. I will lose out under the new pension arrangements but feel that what I will be receiving will still be acceptable to me. In addition to this I am also fortunate in that I can afford the additional contributions. I feel for some of my staff who have commitments and will not be geting a significant pension or lump sum. I will, however, be in my office ensuring that my work is being done. Respect MS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smarmy Arab Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Smarby I don't know what you do or who you work for, I am not going to get involved in a slagging match or start throwing personal comments as we live in a democracy and you have the freedom to strike. I personally decided to leave the PCS union a few years ago, and will not be participating in this industrial action. I will lose out under the new pension arrangements but feel that what I will be receiving will still be acceptable to me. In addition to this I am also fortunate in that I can afford the additional contributions. I feel for some of my staff who have commitments and will not be geting a significant pension or lump sum. I will, however, be in my office ensuring that my work is being done. MS, fair play, I did early in this dicussion allow for your personal circumstances, as not everyone is in the same position! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indicator Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 It is while the ruling class dip our pockets! Who are the ruling class? Could we get them out? If so, who would run the country? Why their replacements of course!! And who would they be? A new ruling class of course!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smarmy Arab Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 grin and bear it,stiff upper lip and all that bolloques...part of the aristocratic coaching the humble to shut the fuque up...aristricrats and industrial ty****s = same keeque Spot on Andy, a crowd of hooray henry millionairres are stealing the pension pots of millions who have paid in for decades, whilst handing out billions to their mates , its a fecking disgrace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint in exile Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 but where is the moral right to free load on the back of others sacrifice? who pays for the early retirement of the public sector workers,private sector workers who have to work till they are 66/67.Do they have the moral right to free load? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixties saintee Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Your right Smarmy, Trillions to the banks, and taking back peanuts in comparision from the pension pots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDY5565 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 we all could leave at early retirmment and avoid the unemployment levels that we know..if we got rid of the swindling robbing fuquers,political,industrial and family inherted fortunes and capure some of those tax dodgers hiding out in Nimes and Athens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slf Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 who pays for the early retirement of the public sector workers,private sector workers who have to work till they are 66/67.Do they have the moral right to free load? bollocks.they have paid into there pension schemes and are not freeloading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newyear'sday97 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 No one 'has' to strike, but you don 'have' to take the resultant pay rise, pension, health and safety, improvement in conditions, and until these indivduals refuse these benefits they will remain beneath contempt and be reduced to sneeking in the back door and avoiding eye contact or conversation with those who have a pair! (apologies females!) As you have seen on this thread, there are various and very genuine reasons for some not to be in the union. I don't think these people are "free-loading". I don't have any issue with you striking if that is what you choose to do. It is your right as a union member. What I do have issue with is your attitude to non-union members. Basically it is encouraging hatred and, going by the above comments, threats of violence to those who are not union members. That is not your right in anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) Im still interested in the big picture of what the strike is saying. There is a simple solution to all this. If the public sector want to keep the 65 retirement age then we should move to a Fiscal Growth to Public Sector finance agreement such as countries like Holland & Canada. So if the rate of growth in the economy is negative the PS gets less money then the year before. This total amount going to the PS doesn't just include pay but everything i.e. schools budgets, prison, etc. everything that the public pays for. So it really is up to those dealing with the budgets including pension funds. That means there might be local agreements on all things. So nationally the UK or Scottish governments will know that a fixed percentage of their total income goes to the Public Sector. It's ideal for central governments because they pay the same rate annually and therefore the PS doesn't always get more, possibly less, when the economy is struggling in the private sector. Pay and pensions are not the only expenditures for the PS, in fact currently capital expenditure is probably more important to encourage a bit growth eben if just locally. Revenue income on average for a Council comes from 20% Council Tax and 80% indirectly from Tax (used to be called the Rate Support Grant). So people and businesses pay 4 times more than their Council Tax bill indirectly to the council every year. The only difference between the PS and the private sector is that you can say I can't afford to keep paying X amount to say Tescos weekly or I can't afford a new whatever, whereas in the PS you must pay what they say the price is or you're in court. I do have sympathy for those that seen their horizon move two years but people who can't make 67 years old in the work place because of say health problems will get early retirement anyway. So if you get to 67 without health problems and it is expected that life expectancy is estimated to extend by some people to around 90 and some even say 120 (i.e. all cancers, diabetes and heart problems cured by science} they've done well. I'll mot see that but just think of the 1.2 million young people (18 to 24) who are unemployed , if they ever get work, I don't think paying for people who have pensions for 30 to 50 years and who had easy working conditions would be satified (probably angry) while they may have to work to 70 or 72 to keep you. I think we should think about the young not the borinng old fart punks and new romantics. I would ignore the young at your peril. There is a massive gap opening up in wealth terms and it starts at the bottom with those clainming benefits and being subject to investigations and those who are in comfortable jobs, far less the gap with those working in the City. Going on strike shows this complaicency. Edited November 24, 2011 by Ronaldo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammsteinally Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) Oops Edited November 24, 2011 by rammsteinally post was wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 The money ain't there. Simple as that. You can strike until the cows come home. Only difference is the public will hate you and see you as greedy. It's the minorities choice Agree mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryhallsdanceband Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 Been listening to radio phone-in on the public sector pensions and strike next week. Final comment in phone-in was made by public sector worker basically makes the point that drives private sector employees nuts. Went along the lines of "successive governments have spent billions of pounds (in public spending) and have not invested in pensions - this was not my fault so why should I help the government resolve this situation by having my pension rights changed - I have worked for 40 yrs in the public sector and on retiring am due a 50% final salary pension - I should get that pension" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryhallsdanceband Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 we all could leave at early retirmment and avoid the unemployment levels that we know..if we got rid of the swindling robbing fuquers,political,industrial and family inherted fortunes and capure some of those tax dodgers hiding out in Nimes and Athens Don't have to go quite so far - why the hell do we put up with the Isle of Man and Jersey acting as tax havens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby kemp Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 Final comment in phone-in was made by public sector worker basically makes the point that drives private sector employees nuts. Went along the lines of "successive governments have spent billions of pounds (in public spending) and have not invested in pensions - this was not my fault so why should I help the government resolve this situation by having my pension rights changed - I have worked for 40 yrs in the public sector and on retiring am due a 50% final salary pension - I should get that pension" Which part drives the private sector nuts??? the bit where the government didnt invest in pensions? the bit where its not HIS fault? the bit about him not seeing why he should miss out on his pension because of the governments short sightedness ??? the bit where he has worked for 40years and is due his final salary pension that he signed up for?? the bit where he says he should get his pension?? or are they going nuts because 40years ago this guy had the foresight to go for a job with a decent pension and they didnt??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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