Ronaldo Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I see. As the biggest creditor (you'd hope!) do HMRC get some kind of priority if assets are sold off? Yes they are the priority creditor. There will be local government too but that might not be a large amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jad Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Stolen from Dundee Utd Mad Forum " Rangers are like a defective bra, the tits keep falling out o'the cups and they are losing their support"!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yes they are the priority creditor. There will be local government too but that might not be a large amount. Can they be the biggest creditor prior to a decision on their tax bill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryangordon86 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I thought that I'd read somewhere that the rules changed at some stage over the last few years and HMRC no longer get preferential status. They just get lumped in with everyone else, regardless of how much is due. How does it all work. If ticketus are owed 25 million do they get x percentage of a say when a decision is made by administrators? If so I wonder if the loan was taken purely to weaken HMRC's position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Can they be the biggest creditor prior to a decision on their tax bill? Well they'll be a "priority creditor" whatgever the amount, but other clubs, trades and staff are considered "ordinary creditors" and just have to hope they get some money p/£. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 if we assume that DUFC do not get their money on Wednesday how does that then effect their cash flow? What other clubs could get caught in the fall out? United are now officially cited as creditors so will not recieve their money on Wednesday. And as the money was not budgeted for it'll have no real effect on United. It is not certain that they won't get money. Rangers are not in administration and are still trading as normal. This is just the first step, it actually protects some of the other creditors as it prevents anyone form taking the family silver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I thought that I'd read somewhere that the rules changed at some stage over the last few years and HMRC no longer get preferential status. They just get lumped in with everyone else, regardless of how much is due. How does it all work. If ticketus are owed 25 million do they get x percentage of a say when a decision is made by administrators? If so I wonder if the loan was taken purely to weaken HMRC's position? The rules changed in 2003 and HMRC just take their place alongside other creditors, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I thought that I'd read somewhere that the rules changed at some stage over the last few years and HMRC no longer get preferential status. They just get lumped in with everyone else, regardless of how much is due. How does it all work. If ticketus are owed 25 million do they get x percentage of a say when a decision is made by administrators? If so I wonder if the loan was taken purely to weaken HMRC's position? I haven't looked at this stuff for a while, you might be right. One thing though - Administration means you hand financial control over to a 3rd party, and Liquidation means Rangers as an entity don't exist anymore. I'm sure the HMRC are still a/the "priority creditor" or they were when I did exams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryangordon86 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Craig Whyte.. Is he an Asset Stripper or is he going to bump all the creditors using loopholes and come out of this with a clean slate. I'm sure this was his plan from the off, I just can't work out his long term goal. Is he a CB or is he lining his pockets? I wouldn't want to be him if he goes down the asset stripping route. Neil Lennon has had bullets in the post for a lot less. I don't think he can win either way, I know this mess is all Murray's doing but most Neanderthal CB's won't see it that way. Anyway, I'll keep my dancing shoes off for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryangordon86 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 The rules changed in 2003 and HMRC just take their place alongside other creditors, Going with that scenario, I wonder if ticketus are in bed with Whyte. Perhaps a pre-agreed plan and agreement for them to accept x amount in the pound from the administrator and get the whole lot anyway as long as it reduces HMRC's over all stake when creditors get their say. Sounds out there but nothing would surprise me with this chap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) The rules changed in 2003 and HMRC just take their place alongside other creditors, You're right it changed in 2002 according to Wilki , so if they have a wee chat or negotiation .. who knows. You must work in this area or have experienced it. So if anyone spends more than they receive and don't pay the full tax due, the HMRC can only line up with the other credors you owe. Excellent must remember that. I always thought you had to pay 100% or as much as you could before others gotpaid. So the HMRC would have to take Rangers to court as the biggest creditor or wait for Rangers to go for Administration so that they can at least get some money or if Rangers can't trade their way outof debt they can force liquidation. HMRC are still the most important factor though. Edited February 14, 2012 by Ronaldo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySpazz Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Rangers owner....... where is he from? He has one f-ked up accent... all over the shop. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17020610 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 The inland revenue will not accept a cva or an agreement that gives them anything other than 100 percent of their money. Or certainly that has always been their stance in the past. Hence why if a club is going through difficulties they try and pay the tax man first. They have to be seen to be doing the right thing. However when you are dealing with a company the size of Rangers it may change their mind. Just read the post by Mumbo with regards to Portsmouth. Did the Inland revenue accept the CVA on these terms? They would surely have been amongst the biggest creditors and I thought that if the majority voted against a CVA then it wouldn't be accepted. No, they didn't accept the CVA and never have. They were less than 25% of the total creditors (debts were in the region of 150million IIRC). In Rangers case, assuming the Big tax bill pushes through, which seems almost certain now, they will be the biggest creditor and therefore decide the fate of the club. They have never taken a CVA before, as doing so would say that tax cheating is acceptable practice. They would rather liquidate the business and get nothing than take a settlement. The whole argument now should be about whether the NEW rangers are allowed direct entry to the SPL. Everyone should be writing to Steve Brown to voice the fans view that this should never be allowed to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 They do own Ibrox and Murray Park, but there are restrictions on what could be done with the land they are on, thus making them less saleable. Apparently Murray Park cannot be used for housing and the main stand at Ibrox is listed meaning you couldn't knock it down. This article explains it all: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17018062 Mr Whyte holds a floating charge over Rangers. That means he gets first dibs at any Rangers assets, up to value of 18 million, plus whatever else he has 'invested'. We can quite happily say he therefore decides what happens with Ibrox and Murray Park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Well they'll be a "priority creditor" whatgever the amount, but other clubs, trades and staff are considered "ordinary creditors" and just have to hope they get some money p/£. HMRC are an ordinary creditor. However baring a miracle that no one is aware of, they will be the largest creditor. However Mr. Whyte himself, through his holding company Wavetower, which is then owned 100% by Whyte's company in the British Virgin Islands, holds what is known as a floating charge. This gives him first dibs on any assets upon liquidation. His plan from the start was liquidation. It is the only way he wins, and people who dared suggest it have been shot down in flames. Where is the ticketus money? Where is Jelavic money? Where was last seasons season ticket sales? Where is the unpaid VAT, NI and PAYE contributions from this year???? A lot of questions to be answered, and don't for a minute think administration will make it unravel, as from what i've heard the preferred administrator (and Whyte gets to decide) was the right hand man during the takeover. A new Rangers will take the place of a liquidated Rangers - the question is whether WE the fans can stand up enough to ensure they start from division 3, and not the SPL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 HMRC are an ordinary creditor. However baring a miracle that no one is aware of, they will be the largest creditor. However Mr. Whyte himself, through his holding company Wavetower, which is then owned 100% by Whyte's company in the British Virgin Islands, holds what is known as a floating charge. This gives him first dibs on any assets upon liquidation. His plan from the start was liquidation. It is the only way he wins, and people who dared suggest it have been shot down in flames. Where is the ticketus money? Where is Jelavic money? Where was last seasons season ticket sales? Where is the unpaid VAT, NI and PAYE contributions from this year???? A lot of questions to be answered, and don't for a minute think administration will make it unravel, as from what i've heard the preferred administrator (and Whyte gets to decide) was the right hand man during the takeover. A new Rangers will take the place of a liquidated Rangers - the question is whether WE the fans can stand up enough to ensure they start from division 3, and not the SPL. Yeah Sean it just clicketd when I came off the computer last night it's really irrelevant whether the HMRC are Preferential or Ordinary creditors, it's the size of the debt in this case that counts and the HMRC are in control, so we'll see how these negotiations go and whether Rangers proceed to Administration in the next week. You're right about some of these other questions, I've heard them discussed and it's a huge mess. It's one of these cases where a company looks fine when plodding along until it hits a bump and all sorts of things appear which are not quite right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex-montrosesaintee Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 However Mr. Whyte himself, through his holding company Wavetower, which is then owned 100% by Whyte's company in the British Virgin Islands, holds what is known as a floating charge. This gives him first dibs on any assets upon liquidation. His plan from the start was liquidation. It is the only way he wins, and people who dared suggest it have been shot down in flames. . This is my understanding of the situation too, which points the blame directly at David Murray. Craig Whyte is just the guy brave enough to get his hands dirty and pull the plug on it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 This is my understanding of the situation too, which points the blame directly at David Murray. Craig Whyte is just the guy brave enough to get his hands dirty and pull the plug on it all. ...Craig Whyte is a liquidation specialist. He has a track record of taking companies in debt, not paying the tax man and then winding up the business. He was described by a Sheriff last week of being 'wholly unreliable' and was blasted by a judge for putting all assets out of the reach of creditors. He is doing exactly the same here. By the time a receiver/adminstrator/liquidator steps foot inside Ibrox all the liquid assets will be gone and laundered into the British Virgin islands... ...and no doubt into an offshore account of one of Murray's companies. Whyte is/was the puppet to do what Murray couldn't be seen doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex-montrosesaintee Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 But it's a dangerous game, as others have mentioned, because there are rangers 'fans' out there who will stoop to any depth in retaliation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish i was Joe McGurn Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Reading in the metro this morning that win or lose the tax case they were being put into administration by Whyte. The money situation is so out of control he was in a lose/lose situation. My question is this. Where has the ticket money and the jelavic money gone ?? I think its about time the police got in there and started to investigate what the hell is going on. Obviously not and Masonic ones though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 But it's a dangerous game, as others have mentioned, because there are rangers 'fans' out there who will stoop to any depth in retaliation. And how many of those can locate the British Virgin Islands on a map???!! Whyte will not be around for long.... (PS - loads of talk in papers about Whyte setting up a new Rangers. This won't happen. Not under Whyte. SFA rules prevent a person running a club who has been involved in an insolvency event at another club in the previous 5 years for one, and secondly and most importantly, if Whyte was involved in a new club then the HMRC could go after them for the old tax bill as they would trigger the Phoenixed company rules which allow HMRC to go after new companies which are a copy of an old one. The first rule in determining liability is are the owners the same? Whyte will be long long gone by then...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish i was Joe McGurn Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 The administrator speaks http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNRVaLs4cBlg%26feature%3Dshare&feature=share&v=NRVaLs4cBlg&gl=GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex-montrosesaintee Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 And how many of those can locate the British Virgin Islands on a map???!! Whyte will not be around for long.... But everyone knows where his castle is, because of his other dodgy dealings. I'm just saying that if Neil Lennon canget bullets in the post, attempted letter bombs, battered in the street for being a bawbag, then what does the guy who destroys Rangers FC get? These people have proved themselves to be above the law already. You might say it is a bit wet to be afraid of rangers fans, but if i was CW (or DM for that matter), i'd be bricking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Christmas Jones Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Other new clubs have started in the bottom division and the way Celtic were speaking yesterday this is where the new Glasgow club will start, unless Clydebank get the nod this time around.Govan Rangers could be in the Junior league next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryangordon86 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 While I agree with most of what you say Stevensan. The big (and possibly deciding question) is whether Whyte is a supporter of the club. If the answer is no and he is viewing RFC as a money making opportunity then I'd agree with what you say. If he is a supporter perhaps he is using his knowledge in the industry to the club's benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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