Reconstruction From A Saints Perspective

[TheYellowBox]

What do saints actually want from reconstruction in scotland?

Do we want the better redistribution model, given we are traditionally a yo-yo club?

Is the 8-8-8 split good for saints as we would expect more often than not to be in the top 8?

Or, do we benefit more (as a club) in the current set up? I.e unlikely to be relegated and decent share of income vs attendances?

Obviously, this is from a club point of view. As a fan, all I want is to play same teams less and keep the competitive league.

[Radford 72]

Since the club only seem willing to talk to a dozen fans about reconstruction (and I appreciate at least one of that number has pushed them to be more open) it's a hard question to answer but put simply, Saints like most clubs will be looking at it financially and on that front, the redistribution of wealth has to be a huge motivation. The figures being talked about when it comes to money dropping down to the First Division are massive in comparison to what teams from that league see now. I suppose that might allow Saints to offer longer contracts (and keep our better players) as there won't be so much of a concern about getting relegated. It should help sustain full-time football for a core of clubs and that should benefit the game long-term. Should.

 

How many clubs are massively positive about the 8-8-8 model, I'm not sure but I don't think the structure is the most important thing to the clubs, it's everything that comes with it. Remember, it wasn't long ago they were telling us we needed 10-12 or something along those lines. I can't see a huge difference (benefit) to Saints between 8-8-8 and the current system. I think there are potentially big problems with the 8-8-8 proposed though, specifically when it comes to getting all the games played before the league is due to split. The 8-8-8 would have denied Ross County the chance to qualify for Europe this season and that can't be right.

[john1962]

I dont know how the change would benefit Saints but a question I have, is will season tickets be priced at SPL prices for the whole season when we could possibly be playing in the second tier after the split?

[Cagey]

Radfords final point & John1962s point sums up just how rediculous & unworkable it is.Plus the point it has been tried & failed before in a another couple of countries.

[TheYellowBox]

Radfords final point & John1962s point sums up just how rediculous & unworkable it is.Plus the point it has been tried & failed before in a another couple of countries.

I'd imagine ( or hope) that you could only sell a season ticket up until the split? The only way around it would be to offer 3 packages. One, which would be a full season ticket, at a price which would reflective of 22 top their games and the rest at a slightly reduced rate per game to reflect the risk. One which is just first 22 and a 3rd option which is a full, but with an opt out, with a refund which would be slightly punitive after the first 22.

First option would reward loyal fans if we get top 8. 2nd would suit many and 3rd, would force fans to opt out, but give them the choice.

I think, that until all the facts are laid out for fans, few can make a clear decision on what they would prefer.

My issue is that I have heard so much on the plans, but nothing that is very clear or well thought through. Doncaster avoids all direct questions and the silence from saints is deafening.

We are talking about 5 months until the new season starts and no one has a clue about what is going in. By the time votes etc are made and structure clearly set up, this season will be done. Clubs are already planning for next when they don't know the set up.

Edited March 31, 2013 by TheYellowBox

[Ronaldo]

we had a great redistribution model until the mid 1970's but I'll not go into that. I think the Scottish football authorities wanted a less competitive version of Scottish football from then but they shrunk the league to imply otherwise. Instead of having many competitive teams they got a few.

I think the proposal it is a better system than the current system primarily because it makes the bottom of the SPL and the top of the 1st Division more interesting. Historically we've been around that position and so I am hopeful it goes through. The current system has one relegation spot (the lowest in Europe) and once that is decided the bottom of the league is dead. In Dundee's position for example they would still have everything to play for and on form would have a good chance of getting back into the 12 for next season. In the 1sr Division if you're in the top teams you can compete to get into the top 4 to get a chance of playing in the 8 team playoff league and the further chance of getting into the top 12 SPL.

below

These six years were wasted under the one up/one down system, when Instead, with the exception of 2005/06, , we could have had the second parts of seasons in the playoff league -

2002/03 - 3rd

2003/04- 3rd

2004/05 - 8th

2005/06 - 2nd

2006/07 - 2nd

3007/08 - 3rd

Once supporters get out of the habit you've lost them . You can argue we lost many then since our top league crowds are lower than at any time,

I don't see an issue with a normal season ticket price since the remaining 14 games will be competitive regardless of our position.

[john1962]

we had a great redistribution model until the mid 1970's but I'll not go into that. I think the Scottish football authorities wanted a less competitive version of Scottish football from then but they shrunk the league to imply otherwise. Instead of having many competitive teams they got a few.

I think the proposal it is a better system than the current system primarily because it makes the bottom of the SPL and the top of the 1st Division more interesting. Historically we've been around that position and so I am hopeful it goes through. The current system has one relegation spot (the lowest in Europe) and once that is decided the bottom of the league is dead. In Dundee's position for example they would still have everything to play for and on form would have a good chance of getting back into the 12 for next season. In the 1sr Division if you're in the top teams you can compete to get into the top 4 to get a chance of playing in the 8 team playoff league and the further chance of getting into the top 12 SPL.

below

These six years were wasted under the one up/one down system, when Instead, with the exception of 2005/06, , we could have had the second parts of seasons in the playoff league -

2002/03 - 3rd

2003/04- 3rd

2004/05 - 8th

2005/06 - 2nd

2006/07 - 2nd

3007/08 - 3rd

Once supporters get out of the habit you've lost them . You can argue we lost many then since our top league crowds are lower than at any time,

I don't see an issue with a normal season ticket price since the remaining 14 games will be competitive regardless of our position.

So if we are in the third division it should be the same price as the SPL as long as its competitive?

[Saticon1]

Why can't a top league of 18 work for the SPL but can work for the lowest league in the 12-12-18 ? Fed up playing teams four times, a bigger SPL is a must and would let more teams at the trough.

[Zamora Fan]

Why can't a top league of 18 work for the SPL but can work for the lowest league in the 12-12-18 ? Fed up playing teams four times, a bigger SPL is a must and would let more teams at the trough.

it wouldn't work because teams like us need 3 or 4 games v Celtic or rangers for the money

[TheYellowBox]

it wouldn't work because teams like us need 3 or 4 games v Celtic or rangers for the money

Total nonsense. How did we survive for 7 years in 1st div without them?

Might have been the case if we got 10k v them still, but it is just 5k ish v c3k without.

The argument could be that you would loose 4 games by only having 18 teams vs current. Although, to counter that, the lost gate receipts would account for maybe 2-3 less players, that we wouldn't really need due to less games and therefore smaller squad required.

[Ronaldo]

So if we are in the third division it should be the same price as the SPL as long as its competitive?

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Well John I perceive the change to the league structure differently. I think it's -

Start Of Season:

SPL 12

1ST Division 12

2ND Division 18

2nd Part of season:

SPL 8 - Play for title and European places plus more money - season ticket as normal;

Playoff League 8 - Bottom 4 of SPL and top 4 of 1st play for 4 SPL places instead of one relegation/promotion spot - season ticket as normal;

1st Division remaining 8 - play to avoid relegation to the 2nd Division - season ticket as normal;

2nd Division 18 (the same)- more varied opposition and playing for promotion - season ticket as normal.

If you're paying for a season ticket now under the current system you don't know if you're paying to watch your team being relegated or a bland 3rd bottom or something else. So it's not much different as regards season tickets but with more interest unless I've missed something.

[Calypso Kid]

I actually think the proposed structure could be quite good but imagine it would cause a few issues. Not insurmountable issues though.

If the proposal doesn't go through, it seems clear something else will happen anyway ie. a breakaway by some Sfl clubs on an invitational basis. The fallout from that might be incredibly harmful but I think it will happen anyway.

[Calypso Kid]

it wouldn't work because teams like us need 3 or 4 games v Celtic or rangers for the money

Precisely what some figures in the media say, and completely wrong. The biggest beneficiaries of Rangers being in the top league are Rangers, Celtic and the media.

We are very much a footnote.

[Ronaldo]

The proposed changes would also get rid of the anomaly of playing some teams three times and others four plus the home and away permutations. We split the league presently anyway under the current system, it's just the promotion/relegation places that are being decided differently. People have always said that the old playoffs were big in terms of crowds, well this is just a bigger version of that.

[john1962]

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Well John I perceive the change to the league structure differently. I think it's -

Start Of Season:

SPL 12

1ST Division 12

2ND Division 18

2nd Part of season:

SPL 8 - Play for title and European places plus more money - season ticket as normal;

Playoff League 8 - Bottom 4 of SPL and top 4 of 1st play for 4 SPL places instead of one relegation/promotion spot - season ticket as normal;

1st Division remaining 8 - play to avoid relegation to the 2nd Division - season ticket as normal;

2nd Division 18 (the same)- more varied opposition and playing for promotion - season ticket as normal.

If you're paying for a season ticket now under the current system you don't know if you're paying to watch your team being relegated or a bland 3rd bottom or something else. So it's not much different as regards season tickets but with more interest unless I've missed something.

Semantics really. Its one really long playoff though. On buying a season ticket at present you know from a selection of eleven who all our games will be against. With this the possible opponents rises to twenty three. How will, for example Livingston, structure their season ticket prices?

[Ronaldo]

Semantics really. Its one really long playoff though. On buying a season ticket at present you know from a selection of eleven who all our games will be against. With this the possible opponents rises to twenty three. How will, for example Livingston, structure their season ticket prices?

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I'm sure Livingston will just set their season ticket price as they did this season and if they get in the top 4 then that's an achievement and as a result bigger games, bigger crowds.

Let's say the split was right now as an example that would make a Promotion/Relegation league of -

Dundee Utd.

St. Mirrn

Hearts

Dundee

Partick Thistle

Morton

Livingston

Falkirk

That is a very good league and gives Livingston a chance plus far more gate money instead of their season being finished which it is under the present system. Good value season ticket that is.

There's two derby games in there too! Tons of good games.

[john1962]

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I'm sure Livingston will just set their season ticket price as they did this season and if they get in the top 4 then that's an achievement and as a result bigger games, bigger crowds.

Let's say the split was right now as an example that would make a Promotion/Relegation league of -

Dundee Utd.

St. Mirrn

Hearts

Dundee

Partick Thistle

Morton

Livingston

Falkirk

That is a very good league and gives Livingston a chance plus far more gate money instead of their season being finished which it is under the present system. Good value season ticket that is.

There's two derby games in there too! Tons of good games.

I wouldn't pay SPL price for it.

[andrew]

I wouldn't pay SPL price for it.

But it might represent better value and entertainment than some of the turgid stuff that is common fare just now?

[541ntees]

Is the 8-8-8 split good for saints as we would expect more often than not to be in the top 8?

Or, do we benefit more (as a club) in the current set up? I.e unlikely to be relegated and decent share of income vs attendances?

 

 

 

how long have you supported saints?

[541ntees]

Why can't a top league of 18 work for the SPL but can work for the lowest league in the 12-12-18 ? Fed up playing teams four times, a bigger SPL is a must and would let more teams at the trough.

 

sorry to play the broken record again but too many meaningless games . it wont work for the bottom league but the sad fact is not enough folk care about that league

[TheYellowBox]

how long have you supported saints?

All my life, but 27 years since first game. Why? Edited April 2, 2013 by TheYellowBox

[541ntees]

All my life, but 27 years since first game. Why?

 

you sound like a young saint who has been spoilt with too much top flight football. we have no right to be a top 8 side or not to be relegated

[john1962]

But it might represent better value and entertainment than some of the turgid stuff that is common fare just now?

I am not dismissing the reconstruction out if hand. Just the thought of playing those teams at SPL prices. Two of Morton's main players are Martin Hardie and Kevin Rutkiewicz. Now as much as I am extremely grateful for what they did with us look what happened when Dunfermline relied on them . They were possibly the worst team the SPL has ever seen.

[TheYellowBox]

you sound like a young saint who has been spoilt with too much top flight football. we have no right to be a top 8 side or not to be relegated

No, I just think that when you look at our record since coming back up, we'd be in the top 8 every season. I don't think we have a right, but I think we should be top 8.

As for relegation, I can't see us getting relegated anytime soon.

Unlike when we were relegated last time, I think we are in a better financial situation and have a better squad than our peers.

I class saints as generally a yo-yo club and we will be relegated again. I just don't think anytime soon.

Interestingly, I think there may be only one season out of last 20+ that I can remember us being out of the top 16 clubs in scotland, so we would at worst be only semi relegated (get inti middle 8) if history is anything to go by.

[541ntees]

No, I just think that when you look at our record since coming back up, we'd be in the top 8 every season. I don't think we have a right, but I think we should be top 8.

As for relegation, I can't see us getting relegated anytime soon.

Unlike when we were relegated last time, I think we are in a better financial situation and have a better squad than our peers.

I class saints as generally a yo-yo club and we will be relegated again. I just don't think anytime soon.

Interestingly, I think there may be only one season out of last 20+ that I can remember us being out of the top 16 clubs in scotland, so we would at worst be only semi relegated (get inti middle 8) if history is anything to go by.

 

 

i agree but we're saints fans