Radford 72 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 The uncooperative nature i am talking about stems from the anger from the fans as they wanted to get into the ground. Im a football fan and know what my reaction would be if I paid for a ticket and couldn't get in thinking there was still space for me. As you say, fans will be fans. There were a catalogue of errors/circumstances before the Liverpool fans even got close to the turnstiles that day but the police had to have both planned before and then reacted better on the day. Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate what it might have been like as a police officer in the eighties but it doesn't excuse them enough. The game shouldn't have been played at Hillsborough, the warning signs had been there previously and you could probably argue Liverpool shouldn't have been at that end of the ground with their larger following, although I understand the reasons for that. The ground wasn't safe though and they were expecting to get 24,000 Liverpool fans through 23 old turnstiles. There was a delay in many fans reaching Sheffield because of an accident on the M62. Many survivors spoke about how empty the Leppings Lane end was at the back of 2:00pm, so you had thousands upon thousands of fans turning up just thirty minutes before kick-off. The police should have had a barrier check away from the turnstiles (as they did the previous year I think) and should have been prepared to organise the arriving fans better. They should also have delayed the kick-off. Instead, they let a situation brew outside the turnstiles which ended with the catastrophic decision to open an exit gate. Even when they did that, the CCTV doesn't show a particularly mad rush to get into the ground but the problem was as fans entered, all they saw was one tunnel ahead of them. That led into just a couple of the four pens that the terracing had been divided into and was at a gradient such as when the crowd started to move towards and down that tunnel, there was no turning back. I can't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head by the HSE reckoned that those two pens ended up with more than twice their safe capacity packed into them but what have the fans done wrong as this stage? Turned up late, buzzing for a semi-final and eager not to miss kick-off? Made my point about what happened after that point, when the referee took the players off the pitch above, so won't repeat it but to say that the fans were the ones who reacted to those injured and dying, as police officers were ordered not to let ambulances into the ground or to keep the fans in the pens. shiresaint 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiresaint Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 This is a liverpool issue and nothing to do with saints or british football in general would hate YNWA to get played at McDiarmid. i feel sorry for those involved but it was the fault of liverpool fans and emergency services combined, nothing a report can say can ever get rid of the truth of this disaster!!!!!!!!! Utter push of the highest order!! A proper report for the first time in 23 years states Fans had no part in what happened and that a combination of factors led to it happening. None of those factors due to the fans. Nothing that any fool on any forum in the world now can say otherwise!! The truth is out and soon will come the justice! JFT96!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiresaint Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 The official who said what you have just typed was Sir Norman Bettison, heavily involved with SYP. It is complete bollocks and you are making yourself look completely ignorant. The rescue effort made by the police? Really, did you just type that with a straight face? Honestly? Next you'll be saying the ambulance service did all they could. In case you don't know, your much adored police force let one ambulance out of over forty into the ground following the players being taken off the pitch. There was one professional ambulance man on the scene. The fans were the rescue effort. It's not hard to educate yourself about Hillsborough if you want to. You should be embarrassed by your contribution to this thread. It's not about opinion either as what you are saying is complete rubbish. How many reports do we need that will clear the fans of blame before people like you finally accept it? In saying all that, I don't think Saints (club or fans) need to anything tomorrow. A great post Mate! As you said I don't feel saints as a club or as a set of fans should do something. I was basically responding to the original post. If it were to happen tho I know it would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiresaint Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 mark of respect has all been done before , why do it now ? It was only a judgement that happened this week not the actual event . ya prick . "ya prick"!? Not sure that's entirely required!? All I will say is point proven! Born2Bru 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDY5565 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 and it is at foot ball matches and not other sports these "things" happen. crowd control back then was "primative',a line of tall burly coppers used to "riot policing". these days their tactics have improuved and it starts from the top with the command post right down to the streacher carriers. exercises on a large (not just for foot ball...terrorists attacks,tube stations,ships and boats and industrial explosions....evry one must need to know his or hers role,even the customers or passers by. we have improuved since and it shows (olympics etc...for most of Europe anyway the two things i dislike the most are crowds and noise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintGraeme39 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) As you say, fans will be fans. There were a catalogue of errors/circumstances before the Liverpool fans even got close to the turnstiles that day but the police had to have both planned before and then reacted better on the day. Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate what it might have been like as a police officer in the eighties but it doesn't excuse them enough. The game shouldn't have been played at Hillsborough, the warning signs had been there previously and you could probably argue Liverpool shouldn't have been at that end of the ground with their larger following, although I understand the reasons for that. The ground wasn't safe though and they were expecting to get 24,000 Liverpool fans through 23 old turnstiles. There was a delay in many fans reaching Sheffield because of an accident on the M62. Many survivors spoke about how empty the Leppings Lane end was at the back of 2:00pm, so you had thousands upon thousands of fans turning up just thirty minutes before kick-off. The police should have had a barrier check away from the turnstiles (as they did the previous year I think) and should have been prepared to organise the arriving fans better. They should also have delayed the kick-off. Instead, they let a situation brew outside the turnstiles which ended with the catastrophic decision to open an exit gate. Even when they did that, the CCTV doesn't show a particularly mad rush to get into the ground but the problem was as fans entered, all they saw was one tunnel ahead of them. That led into just a couple of the four pens that the terracing had been divided into and was at a gradient such as when the crowd started to move towards and down that tunnel, there was no turning back. I can't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head by the HSE reckoned that those two pens ended up with more than twice their safe capacity packed into them but what have the fans done wrong as this stage? Turned up late, buzzing for a semi-final and eager not to miss kick-off? The events leading up to the kick off show that the game was poorly organised and coordinated, and shouldn't have been staged there in the first place. Hopefully a new inquest can see those at fault, criminally charged. Edited September 14, 2012 by SaintGraeme39 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintGraeme39 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Utter push of the highest order!! A proper report for the first time in 23 years states Fans had no part in what happened and that a combination of factors led to it happening. None of those factors due to the fans. Nothing that any fool on any forum in the world now can say otherwise!! The truth is out and soon will come the justice! JFT96!! As stated to radford before my comment was misworded. When i was talking about liverpool issue i was referring to minutes silence etc as this isnt an anniversary , but is a victory for the families of the 96, so we as a club shouldnt need to do anything apart from send our deepest condolences to those affected. I meant the fans were uncooperative stemming from the anger from the fans as they wanted to get into the ground. Im a football fan and know what my reaction would be if I paid for a ticket and couldn't get in thinking there was still space for me.The staff at the club should never have let more than was allocated in, and the police should have been quicker on there feet to react to the situation. All these factors combined to create a tragedy of the highest degree. However most of the blame must fall on the police for there lack of action and trying to cover it up at the time is inconceivable. And I am not a tool, i am just an unbiased football fan giving my opinion on a subject!! Edited September 14, 2012 by SaintGraeme39 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDY5565 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 have to mention the, "stade Furiani, Bastia on Corsica, the 5 th of may (my bday) 1992. 18 died when the tribune collapsed (looked more like a scafold than a tribune...Bastia had won promotion (Corsicas population is 300000) French have a minute of silence at evry match and this year was the twenthy anniversaire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancientsaint Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 I love this forum for its "debating" and a lot of good points come out of watching and reading. Its good for the Families and people of Liverpool to finally get the "result" that they have fought for over the years and that they can move onto the next "step" for wotever reason they need (Compensation -apologies etc etc). I dont see the need for any Fottball club to arrange some form of "rememberance song/singsong" just because of a decision on a disaster that occured way back ---Those "marks of respect" were held at Football stadiums all over Scotland at the time. I dont see what it would serve now and as previously stated "Bradford" "Ibrox" Heysel all fall into a similar category --All Disasters. What is needed now is the enquireies into WHO did and WHO didnt do at the time - MOST if not all are now deceased themselves or are so old that they would be dead by the time appeals and counter appeals were made through the courts. Who gets the full Blame.........The FA -Sheffield-Polis -Ambulance services-Pathologist at the time........Gonna be hard to get someone to take the full fall . and at the end of the day -It WONT bring any of those who perished- back. SaintGraeme39 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slf Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 mark of respect has all been done before , your right i am sure we done our mark of respect in our midweek replay back at parkhead versus the old rangers.oh yes i am sure now,as i remember a few old rangers 'supporters' disrupting the minutes silence.i was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Christmas Jones Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 If we were to do something,I would rather sing a song everyone could join in with,that was nt associated with Celtic. McCarry One Nil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOODLUM65 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Until you have experienced being in a crush situation, fenced in at a football ground, screaming at the police to open the gate to let you into the"no man's land" (the unoccupied area separating the fans in the corner of a football stadium ) you cannot begin to realise what it's like. I encountered such an experience in the 1980's at Fratton Park Portsmouth . The visitors were Liverpool in the cup, when John Barnes scored direct from a corner kick. What was the police re-action? Absolutely Z I L C H. There but for the grace of god... ............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintGraeme39 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 My thoughts are from someone who has never experienced a crush or even the old standing sections due to my age. I have been brought up in a police culture at football where you constantly feel watched and sometimes experience the heavy handedness of the police. Therefore my opinion may be of an inexperienced one to that days standards of policing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indicator Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 In saying all that, I don't think Saints (club or fans) need to anything tomorrow. Concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indicator Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 However I shall read up on the incident to try and get a better understanding of what happened on that awful day! and my defence of the police comes from my dad being an ex copper, just been brought up that way unfortunately... You shouldn't feel you have to apologise for that mate. Not on this forum nor any other for that matter. SaintGraeme39 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintdunc Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 We should join in with a rendition of YNWA as will most clubs tomorrow. I am off to see HTFC against The Rams tomorrow at The John Smith Stadium and I am assured that this will happen at this game. I shall be paying my respects and not just because I now live in Sheffield. End of! McCarry One Nil and shiresaint 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsaintee Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 this is to do with england like the heysel the only connection to scotland is that we all have to sit at football at least they can have a drink at the football how many english fans could give you any details about the ibrox disaster but could tell you why scottish fans were banned from wembley ps i do not want fans in scotland singing we are old rangers no one likes us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy rhodes fancy watch Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 your right i am sure we done our mark of respect in our midweek replay back at parkhead versus the old rangers.oh yes i am sure now,as i remember a few old rangers 'supporters' disrupting the minutes silence.i was there. yip you're right , we then took a doing from the bigot team on the pitch ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) Ok, following some rather ascerbic comments and yes, abuse, directed at me for even considering a tribute, nothing will.be played. Hopefully that keeps you all happy! Time to lock this thread I think.... Edited September 15, 2012 by Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cagey Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Ok, following some rather ascerbic comments and yes, abuse, directed at me for even considering a tribute, nothing will.be played. Hopefully that keeps you all happy! Time to lock this thread I think.... Oh how I love common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the mad referee Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 surely now there must be private prosecutions brought againt those responsible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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