Michael O'Halloran

[andy rhodes fancy watch]

Where have I said they don't deserve to be legends?

This St Johnstone side has won the Scottish cup, beaten Rosenborg over two legs (in a time where football has much more exposure than it did back then) has qualified for Europe on 4 consecutive seasons and finished consistently higher than any other saints side in history in the league. This is the most successful period in our little club's history and the major contributors in that will always be remembered as legends. O'Halloran and the guys we've mentioned are/were major contributors.

I take the point regarding guys like Dunne, who I think only played something like 15 games for us, Iwelumo who played even less and guys like Banks who sat on the bench for a couple of years, but anyone who has been here for a sustained amount of time and been part of the success of this squad ARE legends. I don't think there's any debate in that.

I wasn't born when Saints last had even close to equitable success, with their European run and the cup final etc, and I would never presume to say that those that took us that far aren't legends. Of course they are, and I'm extremely envious of the people who were lucky enough to witness that team play. That shouldn't dampen our perception of this team though - it makes me quite sad they're perceived differently just because not as much time has past. The reality is - they have achieved more and they deserve to be considered at least as good in the eyes of our fans as those guys way back when.

Qualified for the qualifying rounds Kyle. There is your big difference. 

[babychunder]

From cambridge dictionary on line this definition of a legend (person)

"someone very famous and admired, usually because of their ability in a particular area"

Famous he is among us Saintees, for being part of the team that won the cup. Admired? Nah. His ability in a particular area is obviously footie, and I'd argue the case for a dozen more players we've had with lots more ability than him.

The whole squad who won the cup have legendary status in my mind, but as individuals not all of them are legends.

[Abernethy Saint]

There is absolutely no danger whatsoever that future generations won't think of the entire Cup Winning side as legends. There will be reunions, walk-ons at half time, obituaries, minutes silences, books, "where are they now", etc etc etc. I'd be extremely surprised if the side as a whole wasn't commemorated in some way down the line by the club. Ironically, this is even more likely to happen if we return to our historically normal role as a lower league side. 

No way MOH is a legend on his own, as I understand the term. It has connotations of either very long and decent service combined with being a thoroughly decent bloke, like Capn Dave or Ando, or far less often, doing extraordinary things in a short period like May.

[PauloPerth]

Without looking it up, can anyone name every single player on the teamsheet that day instantly?

I doubt the majority can, and I'm sure I can't. It was a fantastic day and the players involved (whoever they were) deserve a lot of credit but I feel its easy to throw about cliched pleasantries.

I'm amazed to hear you say that Jiangsu, I genuinely thought everyone would remember that team for a long time.  I'm maybe just a bit of a geek for that kind of thing though!

 

[Jiangsu Sainty]

I'm amazed to hear you say that Jiangsu, I genuinely thought everyone would remember that team for a long time.  I'm maybe just a bit of a geek for that kind of thing though!

 

 

It took me a little bit of thinking to remember Iwelumo and Miller, despite the latters time at the club. 
Iwelumo is not a saints legend, but he was part of the legendary saints cup winning team. MOH is closer to being a legend, but isn't one.

[PauloPerth]

Yeh I suppose it just depends on everyone's definition of a 'legend' in St Johnstone terms.  

I never saw the likes of Pearson, Connelly, Coburn, Lambie, Hall and Aitken play, but I recognise them as legends in the history of the club.  They played in Europe one season, finished third in the top league and were narrowly beaten in a league cup final.  Not trying to put down what they achieved, just putting into context how incredible our recent 'success' has been.

[Jiangsu Sainty]

Other than Connolly (96) each of them played over 100 league games for Saints. MOH played 70 something. (according to wiki anyway)

For me this is a contributing factor, although granted it can't be a binding one as it seems O'Halloran played more than undeniable saints legend Stevie May, who secures that status due to a variety of other factors (goals local).

I agree its a matter of opinion. For me he isn't at all but it's not like it's offensive to the sensibilities to say otherwise.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Jiangsu Sainty

[RandomGuy]

May made 81 appearances for us, O'Halloran made 91

[essexsaint]

May made 81 appearances for us, O'Halloran made 91

may is 100000000000 times more of a legend that moh 

[Jiangsu Sainty]

May made 81 appearances for us, O'Halloran made 91

O'Halloran made 72 league appearances...

[Al C]

Without looking it up, can anyone name every single player on the teamsheet that day instantly?

I doubt the majority can, and I'm sure I can't. It was a fantastic day and the players involved (whoever they were) deserve a lot of credit but I feel its easy to throw about cliched pleasantries. I'm sure you can now post the squad in 20 seconds, but I stand by my post for most people

Yes!  I'm not even going to bother typing it out though.

I've noticed a few dismissive references to us winning the cup recently, mainly in relation to Wright with the sarcastic "Ah but Tommy won the cup" line.  We did win the cup!  We've never won anything before and may not do so again.  The events of that day are absolutely ingrained on my mind and unlikely to ever fade.  Couldn't care less if it is a "cliched pleasantrie", it is the best moment in the history of the club and we were lucky enough to see it.  I'd far rather MOH hadn't gone to them (and I've got severe doubts about whether we've received the reported fee as mentioned elsewhere) but he was part of a team that were history defining.  It deserves all the hyperbole directed at it and I'd imagine in due course when they've all retired the entire team will be inducted into the hall of fame.  And rightly so. Things are not great at the moment but lets never downplay what was achieved on May 17th 2014.  Not unless we start winning it every single season. And even then that would still be the first one. 

[Al C]

Proof will be in the pudding if we all still remember him in 10 years. I appreciate the feeling the whole cup winning squad are "legends" but in truth I think only a couple will be remembered as that in the end. Mackay, Anderson and May will all be remembered for reasons far deeper than just winning a trophy, and as harsh as it is the rest will just be remembered fondly by those who were alive to witness it. 

Of course we'll remember him in 10 years, I've no immediate or long term plans to stop watching the cup final coverage.  I've probably seen it close to 100 times now and not bored of it.  He was part of it and actually played very well in the final (accepting nobody really put a foot wrong on the day).  He gave United something else to think about, something they were not fully familiar with at that time.  But the team won the cup and will be rememered as such. 

[Al C]

You're proving my point with the first line. To folk who watched Saints beat Hamburg, the entire line up will be legends and they could rattle off the eleven starting players easily. Yet here you are saying they don't deserve to be called legends.

My point is in 30 years the generation of fans who havent been born yet likely won't consider everyone in the cup winning season legends, they'll know precious little about players contributions over their time with us unless they sit down and research it, so will look for the most notable players. The line up will be remembered, I've no doubt, but the legendary tag simply cannot be applied to everyone.

Who decides on legendary status?  I've no idea what the Hamburg line up was without looking it up but accept that was a massive part in the clubs history. I don't think Kyle at any point said they didn't deserve to be called legends either.

[RandomGuy]

Who decides on legendary status?  I've no idea what the Hamburg line up was without looking it up but accept that was a massive part in the clubs history. I don't think Kyle at any point said they didn't deserve to be called legends either.

The fans. And he said they achieved nothing of note, which is hardly fair. The fact you couldn't rattle off the line up against Hamburg just emphasises things. The "Scottish Cup winning squad" will be talked about within the club forever, the individual players won't be. Only the most notable ones will be remembered for more than that success while the others just fade under that tagline. 

[Kyle]

I didn't say that at all. You're just making this up as you go along now. There's plenty of players from all eras of the club who are considered legends but, other than long service (which is obviously a fair standard too) didn't achieve anything close to what this team has.  I made a point of saying the Hamburg/league cup final side of that era were a clear exception in that as that was the closest thing to what we've achieved in recent seasons and I will also say the team we had late 90s also deserve recognition too. 

I agree with Al C - I really can't understand some fans who try and discredit what this team has consistently achieved over a number of years. It's quite incredible considering our historical position. I'll be lucky to see anything like again in my life time. Guys like MOH, Mannus, Wright, Millar, Davidson, Anderson, Mackay, May etc etc who have made massive contributions to that will be forever etched in my memory as the players who gave us those times. There are individuals who have been better players - your Syllas, Sandazas and Scotlands - but I'll not remember them anywhere near as fondly as the core of this team. 

 

[RandomGuy]

If guys who played a reasonable number of matches in the 70s/80s can be referred to as legends but achieved nothing of note

[Kyle]

So I didn't say it then? Thanks for pointing that out. 

[Al C]

The fans. And he said they achieved nothing of note, which is hardly fair. The fact you couldn't rattle off the line up against Hamburg just emphasises things. The "Scottish Cup winning squad" will be talked about within the club forever, the individual players won't be. Only the most notable ones will be remembered for more than that success while the others just fade under that tagline. 

I'm maybe being incredibly thick here but he didn't say that at all.  He made the entirely reasonable point that Roddy Grant is referred to as "the legend" when having achieved less than many of the modern day players.  That is not to belittle Roddy in any way, he was one of my favourite players growing up and I've loads of great memories of his playing days at Saints.

If "the squad" is talked about then surely it will extend to then talking about the individuals within that squad? 

[Jiangsu Sainty]

  It deserves all the hyperbole directed at it and I'd imagine in due course when they've all retired the entire team will be inducted into the hall of fame.  And rightly so. 

I fully agree it is is a matter of opinion but it is my firm opinion that there has been a bizarre blurring of the distinction between legendary individuals and a legendary team. I would argue that the cup winning team does count as a legendary team in the context of St. Johnstone's history. The mildly irrelevant attempts by posters and mods to try and belittle others for being fairweather fans or being ungrateful for feeling otherwise despite the fact I don't see anyone claiming otherwise are plain silly.

By your logic Al and Kyle Chris Iwelumo is an individual St. Johnstone legend in his own right. It is my opinion that this is frankly ridiculous. Further, inducting the entire time into the hall of fame as individuals rather than just "the cup winning team" would dilute the already watery concept of a hall of fame to the point of ridicule. It is quite right that there are only a handful of names there now, so the thought of just plopping in another 18 from one day shows what a farce the whole concept would become if left to some people. I'm not less of a St. Johnstone fan for thinking that and resent implications I don't care enough about that day because of it.

Kyle you've listed MOH, Mannus, Wright, Millar, Davidson, Anderson, Mackay, May etc etc, and in the context of the discussion can be taken to be implying they are St. Johnstone legends, but remember this main discussion has been about MOH. 

Mannus has played 135 league games for Saints, was best keeper in league for decent amount of that time and has the whole hard-man thing that endears him to fans. Wright played 108 league games and make Cifti and Lustig cry, Millar has played 227, Davidson 179 and would be more if his style didn't get him injured more, Anderson is nearly the record-appearance holder. Mackay has played 215 league games and been a great captain, May didnt play that many but as discussed in a previous post is definitely one due to the fact he is local, scored goals and had cult-inducing traits. If we had been discussing any of these players my opposition to their legendary status would have been minor to non-existent, not least as they formed part of the cup-winning team. But we weren't, we were discussing MOH, who played 72 games and was only great for some of them, and then gave up a month early. You've put up an argument we didn't make to tear it down and then chastised RandomGuy for correctly pointing out when you did a similar thing.

The Saints cup wining team was a legendary team, a number of the players within it deserve to be seen as Saints legends, but not each individual in it is deserving of the hyperbole thrown at them as indiviuals, the shaming of other fans for not thinking Iwelumo is a Saints legend is pathetic, and MOH is not a Saints legend in my opinion

[Jiangsu Sainty]

 If guys who played a reasonable number of matches in the 70s/80s can be referred to as legends but achieved nothing of note,

 

The fans. And he said they achieved nothing of note, which is hardly fair. The fact you couldn't rattle off the line up against Hamburg just emphasises things. The "Scottish Cup winning squad" will be talked about within the club forever, the individual players won't be. Only the most notable ones will be remembered for more than that success while the others just fade under that tagline. 

I didn't say that at all.

 

[Al C]

He didn't say the Hamburg team achieved nothing of note though did he which is what is being implied!

[RandomGuy]

Who else played in the 70s that are described as legends?

[Al C]

You are being a wee bit over sensitive JS by talking about the "shaming" of other fans or calling people "fairweather supporters" etc, nobody had done that.  Kyle and I have expressed an opinion, you've done likewise, fine, it's good to actually have a debate on WAP for once.  I'm not keeping a list of who the best Saints fans are or anything.  My point was a bit wider in terms of the "Tommy won the cup" brigade which I accept was not part of your original post and not really relevant to the MOH thread either.  However had to keep the thread live and towards the top of the forum as that is important to many people.

[Abernethy Saint]

Bump.

[Kyle]

 

 

 

So. Eh. I didn't say what's being implied then? 

Random Guy - you've said yourself that fans decide who legends are. I wasn't around in the 70s and I have foggy memories of a game or two in the the very late 80s. I'm in no position to decide who's a legend from those eras and who isn't. The facts don't lie though - outside the Hamburg team and the league cup final, it was hardly a sparkling time for the club in terms of achievement. The fans at that time will still have players they consider legends though.  My argument is that the players who have made contributions in this team, which has inarguably achieved much more, deserve to be considered legends along with them. I've already accepted and said guys like Dunne, iwelumo etc maybe not individually, but most of the starting 11 in the cup final (which includes MOH) have played a decent number of games for us or have made exceptional contributions to those achievements and deserve to be considered legends because of that. I'm not trying to shame anyone, but I just can't see how these guys can be viewed in any other light, particularly those who have been here for a decent length of time during this successful era.