Armed Forces Day

[Kilgour]

I will  not criticize this before actually witnessing it.In principle I think its a good idea.Those that are worried about Saints going OTT surprise me as I cant recall Saints going OTT about anything.Although there is no obvious link between football and the armed forces,I have in the past attended the remembrance service at Haymarket for MaCraes Battallion with football fans (mostly Hearts) and felt very humble.This day is to be an appreciation of armed forces past and present and if that offends or annoys you then perhaps you should consider missing that match.

[Ali91]

If you don't like it, don't come along. 

Brutal. 

[Ali91]

This day is to be an appreciation of armed forces past and present and if that offends or annoys you then perhaps you should consider missing that match.

Also brutal. 

 

This day is to be a football match, the fact you even have to question whether it's going to make people not come to the game (and even worse, tell them they shouldn't) should show you that this issue would divide Saints fans. Why should a Saints fan have to miss a game because he has a different outlook on something completely outwith football than another? 

[Honest Saints Fan]

Agreed. Absolutely nothing to do with football. A minute silence to remember those who have sacrificed their life for our country is enough. Even that I don't especially agree with but can see why it is done.

[HertsAgain]

Is it just my imagination or are folk going a wee bit OTT about the whole whys and wherefores of this "event"? 

Given its likely to involve a handful of people in uniform actually turning up, a pipe band maybe and perhaps some local army cadet kids running about on the pitch for a bit it all seems a wee bit of a nothing to get upset about. Suggesting fans "don't go if you don't like it" is a bit extreme as well from others. 

Chill out, people. The game is the focus, nothing else.

[HelsinkiSaintee]

Is it just my imagination or are folk going a wee bit OTT about the whole whys and wherefores of this "event"? 

Given its likely to involve a handful of people in uniform actually turning up, a pipe band maybe and perhaps some local army cadet kids running about on the pitch for a bit it all seems a wee bit of a nothing to get upset about. Suggesting fans "don't go if you don't like it" is a bit extreme as well from others. 

Chill out, people. The game is the focus, nothing else.

I hope everybody is as passionate to defend the right's of Christians, after all, Jesus sacrificed himself for us as well.

Edited October 7, 2015 by HelsinkiSaintee

[541ntees]

It shows what a stupid world we live in when this has to happen

[Brogan]

My initial post wasn’t meant to be inflammatory and I’m sorry it’s been taken that way. Still, I’ve been disappointed by some of the visceral responses. I was going to just leave the topic, but before I do, I want to explain why I’m wary of an Armed Forces Day - and any form of military remembrance at McDiarmid. I don’t claim to speak for anyone else.

 

First an Armed Forces Day has already taken place this year. Having another - at least in name - four months later surely risks conflating the current work of our armed forces with remembrance of the slaughter of millions of people during past conflicts. It isn’t the same.

 

Maybe I'm pre-judging and the day will simply include a few moments' reflection to recognise individual acts of bravery. I’d have no problem with that as a one-off, though there are equally brave people in and out of uniform who aren’t armed, and plenty non-violent peacemakers who never seem to get public recognition.

 

But what if we’re asked to appreciate the work of the armed forces as a whole? Does that mean applauding the bravery of limbless bomb disposal experts alongside those pressing buttons to launch drones, or those flying under the US flag illegally bombing Syria? I know they have a job, but do I have to like it at a football match?

 

And to those who think I'm making something political out of nothing: there's been a covert political element to Armed Forces Day since its inception in 2006. And the Government is never afraid to use it: last year David Cameron used it as a naked political exercise. More than this, it mocks our soldiers by promoting respect for those whose lives the Government recklessly risked in a futile, illegal war in Iraq. It also handily serves to stifle criticism, as we’ve seen here: even raising the issue of whether we should celebrate an Armed Forces Day is quickly hijacked by accusations of disrespect to the dead.

 

To a lesser extent, I’m against any form of remembrance at football. We managed without it for the first 100 years of St Johnstone’s history. That takes us through Boer Wars – in which at least one Saints player fought – two world wars and other conflicts. Was that omission insulting to the ex-soldiers and their relatives in the Perth crowds over the years? In all my research, I’ve never seen or heard any evidence of that.

 

Remembrance at football matches is a recent invention. I can’t say for sure when it first took place at a St Johnstone match, but it was sometime in the last 15 years.

 

In fact, can I remind some posters that between 1939 and 1995, Britain didn’t even mark Armistice Day? Instead, the only day of remembrance was the nearest Sunday to 11 November. In 2015, though, we’ll have organised remembrance in churches and in the city centre the day after the game. Four days later, on Armistice Day itself, we’ll observe two-minute silences in Perth workplaces, accompanied no doubt by a march through the city. If people feel the need to publicly share their solemnity, they clearly don’t have to trudge up to McDiarmid for the opportunity.

 

And what are we actually remembering? Since 1995, when Armistice Day was reborn, we’ve seen increasingly conspicuous competitive compassion to see just how respectful we can appear to be. Newspapers fight for the most ostentatious remembrance mastheads. TV almost requires that every presenter must be fully poppied-up by mid-October. Because if you aren’t you get abused.

 

Is it any surprise that as soon as you bring remembrance at football it too develops political overtones, through Rangers’ use of oversized poppies or the demonstration against them at Celtic Park, which led for calls for those simply holding a banner to be hunted down and banned from football? Is this what remembrance should be about? If not, can we start thinking what we want it to be about?

 

All this is concerning. Not just in terms of politicisation, but also as a society. Where people care more about being seen to respect, rather than actually respecting and when people bully others to show sufficient honour to the armed forces, the act of public remembrance becomes trite.

 

And when people on this forum get so worked up to suggest that others shouldn’t attend a football match because they simply don’t see the place for militarism at it, that really is something to worry about.

 

[Cagerf]

I agree about the politicisation of remeberance is abhorrent and is wrong but we must not forget those who have died for our freedoms and those that sign an opened ended contract to potentially die to protect us and often are put at risk for stupid political ends, war in Iraq being the prime example. However we should not end up in the situation outlined in the poem below.

Tommy

I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,  The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."  The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,  I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:  O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;  But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,  O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.  I went into a theatre as sober as could be,  They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;  They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,  But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!  For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside "; But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,  O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.  Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.  An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.  Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? " But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,  O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll. We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,  But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;  An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,  Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;  While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"  But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,  O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind. You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:  We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.  Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.  For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! " But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;  An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;  An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! And if you think it is  dated  you still come across pubs that have signs  "No squad dies allowed"

 

[Kilgour]

Also brutal. 

 

This day is to be a football match, the fact you even have to question whether it's going to make people not come to the game (and even worse, tell them they shouldn't) should show you that this issue would divide Saints fans. Why should a Saints fan have to miss a game because he has a different outlook on something completely outwith football than another? 

OkThen do we just ignore the real world.I was trying to see both sides.I personally dont think the attendance will be affected up or down by the clubs attempt to do what many other sports already do.You cant please all of the people all of the time.

[Kilgour]

Also brutal. 

 

This day is to be a football match, the fact you even have to question whether it's going to make people not come to the game (and even worse, tell them they shouldn't) should show you that this issue would divide Saints fans. Why should a Saints fan have to miss a game because he has a different outlook on something completely outwith football than another? 

Obviously you are against the idea,but to take a small part of my post and twist it does you no service. and nowhere did i "TELL" people not to attend. I am going,you choose for yourself.

 

 

•  

[50yrs a Saint]

I can't believe this has become such an issue for fans on here. Saints can't seem to do anything rightt, for some people. In 2013 they "forgot" to have a silence in the nearest match to Remembrance Sunday and were slated in the media. I don't see this as political in any way, and I, for one, will be proud to go to the game and pay my respect to local current forces personnel from our own community,  as well as those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice in armed conflicts all over the world, regardless of the politics or rights or wrongs of the decision to go to war in the first place. Yes its a sporting event but St Johnstone lost 8 of her own players during the First World War, so it touches the club and football like every other area of society. Lest we forget!!!

http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/en/contributions/13068

Edited October 7, 2015 by 50yrs a Saint

[Blues Brother]

I've no idea why they want to have an Armed Forces Day this year. Did they have one in 1919 or 1946. Seems to me a copy cat Sevco cynical marketing ploy. If Perth people want to honour the armed forces then there should be a day set aside in the calendar and a proper tribute to the work of the armed forces. Not just for football fans but for everyone. If Saints want to get involved then all well and good but not on a match day.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Blues Brother

[AthensSaint]

Though I have enjoyed  this thread and the good debate on this issue, I have been surprised at the lack of tolerance of people who don't completely agree with St Johnstone as a football club supporting this initiative. I still personally feel strongly that a local community club like St Johnstone is a great conduit in remembering those, who were normal people like you and me in our community, that were brave enough to take such a huge potential sacrifice. As others have said, leave it to the politicians to "cheapen" such things. Many other clubs have taken initiatives in different ways. I was very pleased with our smelly neighbours remembering The Battle of Loos, 4th Battalion Black Watch was their own. Weell done to Dundee for honouring and remembering their own. I wish we were more collective on this.            

[rik2304]

A lot of fighting on this thread.

Ironically.

[blueheaven]

With each year that passes I become more and more uncomfortable with how the country behaves at this time of year, and in particular with the way in which football is now attaching itself to it. It sometimes feels as if people are competing to prove they care more than the next person, and actively searching for those deemed not to care enough so that they can name and shame them on social media and accuse them of not supporting "our boys" who "defend our lives". So much of it is starting to seem a bit nasty and politically opportunistic, regardless of the good intention of the original message of Remembrance. I think it's important for people to be able to acknowledge that this situation is happening and to be critical of it, without being greeted by the automatic knee-jerk reaction that we're somehow being disrespectful by doing so.

In 2009 we had the Daily Mail attempting to bully football clubs into wearing poppies on their shirts, and trying to shame those clubs who didn't. It wasn't considered disrespectful or disgraceful for football shirts not to include poppies for 60 or so years previous to that, so why is it suddenly an issue now? Then in 2012 we had James McClean getting death threats because he chose not to wear a poppy on his Sunderland shirt. I find it appalling that a person should be put in that position by their employer while trying to do their job - if the guy doesn't want to wear a poppy, it's his right to make that choice. He shouldn't even have to explain it. It's up to him. Ditto the TV presenters and newsreaders who annually get sent hate mail if they dare appear on TV without wearing one.

And now we have football clubs doing stuff like this. It's just way too much and I don't want it at the football. I get that there have been Saints players and supporters over the years who have lost their lives in wars, and for that I think a dignified minute's silence is absolutely appropriate. But the rest of it (including granting free entry to people just because they've made a particular career choice of their own free will) I find inappropriate. There are ample opportunities for people to observe silences, attend services and even watch services on TV if that's what they want to do. I also agree with the previous post suggesting that Saints could send a representative to a local service if they wanted to.

I'll still attend the match because at the end of the day this is only a small part of it and I'm going because I want to support my team. But I think the very fact that people are even suggesting fans should stay away from this fixture if they don't like it, is a strong demonstration of why it shouldn't be happening in the first place.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1225562/Kop-Liverpool-Manchester-United-Bolton-refuse-wear-poppies-weekend-matches.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3015891/James-McClean-hung-dry-Sunderland-poppy-row-didn-t-allow-explain-decision.html

 

[Percy Johnston]

An absolutely superb post by blueheaven -  eloquent, considered and balanced. The traditional minute's silence is all that is needed.

I especially agree with:

 But the rest of it (including granting free entry to people just because they've made a particular career choice of their own free will) I find inappropriate.

Here's an idea - how about Saints offering free admission that same day to NHS workers, the emergency services and others who are trained to save lives rather than take lives?

No? Thought not.

[Cagerf]

I agree with the general trend od Blue heavns post.  However James McLean is a poor example as he, for perferctly understandable reasons, finds the British national anthem, Union Flag, flag of St George and the British national anthem objectionable, (i have no problems with him holding these views.)  However he is hipocritical in that he then choses to work in the UK and earn a significant salery (£780,000  (2012) source google) and therfore must pay tax to a national entety that pays for the instituitions he finds objectionable.  If he truly were to take the high ground he would refuse to play in English, or indeed Scottish football, and ly his trade else where.

For example I have refused to go to certain countries to work because I find there goverments objectionable.

[blueheaven]

I agree with the general trend od Blue heavns post.  However James McLean is a poor example as he, for perferctly understandable reasons, finds the British national anthem, Union Flag, flag of St George and the British national anthem objectionable, (i have no problems with him holding these views.)  However he is hipocritical in that he then choses to work in the UK and earn a significant salery (£780,000  (2012) source google) and therfore must pay tax to a national entety that pays for the instituitions he finds objectionable.  If he truly were to take the high ground he would refuse to play in English, or indeed Scottish football, and ly his trade else where.

For example I have refused to go to certain countries to work because I find there goverments objectionable.

I don't really see why that makes any difference. He may well be a hypocrite. He may be a truly awful person (I have no idea if he is or not). But he still has the right to choose not to wear a poppy, and it's wrong of his employer to put him in a position where not wearing one becomes a public statement. And seriously, people sending the guy death threats? Because he chooses not to wear a plastic flower? Honestly? I think people need to get a grip and realise that it's not a crime if someone holds a different view.

Incidentally, I also dislike the British national anthem, and the British flag, and I consider myself to be pro Scottish Independence, and I find David Cameron and his government deeply objectionable, but I choose to live and work in England. Living in a place doesn't mean you have to support its government or institutions.

 

Edited October 8, 2015 by blueheaven

[Ali91]

I agree with the general trend od Blue heavns post.  However James McLean is a poor example as he, for perferctly understandable reasons, finds the British national anthem, Union Flag, flag of St George and the British national anthem objectionable, (i have no problems with him holding these views.)  However he is hipocritical in that he then choses to work in the UK and earn a significant salery (£780,000  (2012) source google) and therfore must pay tax to a national entety that pays for the instituitions he finds objectionable.  If he truly were to take the high ground he would refuse to play in English, or indeed Scottish football, and ly his trade else where.

For example I have refused to go to certain countries to work because I find there goverments objectionable.

James McLean's taxes would go to the British government even if he were to ply his trade at home would it not? 

[Oldermoresensiblepack]

Hmmm bit of a splitter this thread. I personally don't wear the Poppy, not because I have anything against the Armed Forces. I can remember as a an A.C.F. member that Remembrance Sunday was a thing you did as a mark of respect for those who served. Parade through the town to St Johns Kirk, church service and that was that. Now it seems to have turned into a bit of a melodrama ( a bit of charade if you look at the rangers extravaganza ). Whether we like it or not events like this will always have the potential to be hijacked by either the Loony Left or the equally loony right. BUT this is a football match, we aren't or shouldn't be going OTT on each other over this. I'm going to the game to watch Saints not to make some political statement I may or may not agree with.
As long as it's done with dignity (no absailing off the stands or waving dirty great big UJ's ala the rangers) I will have no problem with it.

[HOODLUM65]

As long as Tommy doesn't appear wearing a Glengarry, Balmoral hat or bunnet or any similar military looking headgear, (like the Breadman did recently), I have no particular objection to the event.

[jazzsaint]

Other colours of poppy are available!

 

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/

"In 1914 people may have thought they were fighting German militarism but not a year has gone by since when the British military have not been engaged in fighting somewhere in the world. No other country can boast of or be shamed by such a record. Militarism is alive and well in today’s Britain."

[Cagerf]

James McLean's taxes would go to the British government even if he were to ply his trade at home would it not? 

unfortunately if he continued to live in the Cregan Estate but he could commute from the Irish Republic and pay his taxes there or  do the Irish teams not offer him enough money.

Appologies starting to rant.   I still stand by the point that it should be a short dignified silence and the offer to let memders of the forces a nice gesture.  Why should saints be pilloried for a good gesture we should encourage it,  perhaps have an emergency services day,  people with disabilities and other deserving causes.  The up side for the club is to turn people into regular attenders.  How often on these pages do we see people ranting at the club for not doing enough to increase attendances.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Cagerf
my stupidity

[Cagerf]

In an attempt to lighten things you do not want to know what predictive texts put in the above post!