Sevco zombie Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 have to watch what i say here ,but here goes i have friends in the army these are boys from perth ,one blown to bits in iraq ,another shot in the head at his barracks another who has served 25 years and has suffered terribly since leaving mostly due to the things he saw in bosnia ,another who served in ireland who also lives with the things he saw ,i have another friend who is just about to leave after twenty five years ,these lads all joined up to have a future to train hard and learn skills that you cant always get on civvy street ,when they come back onto civvy street they are forgotten about in many cases left to suffer with the horrific things they saw or have done to help protect our way of life ,BROGAN you knew what sort of reaction you would get putting this up ,your last message above is a disgrace ,half of them never fought so fecking what but even sadder you went and checked it all up .im giving facts you say bollocks your stirring it ,these men and women have fought to preserve our way of life every body should thank them and kids should be told what they have done for us and what they go through because of it and what there families go through ,saints well done on what you did yesterday .ps im not a saints fan im a rangers supporter ,my son plays for saints though and they are a family club and i never thought id see a thread like this on a saints website ,you may not like what rangers do but least they do it this may not be well written proberly cause im so angry that this is even being discussed on here croc and Kilgour 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inchcolm Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) As a retired soldier and I have served in many conflicts. I think this thread was set up in good faith but it has taken an uneasy turn can we now please now draw it to a close Edited November 8, 2015 by Inchcolm fazman1977 and Norsaint 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abernethy Saint Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Brogan -That's a powerful argument. Why would you leave and not continue to put your view across so well? Bear in mind many posts and likes are made after beer o'clock, and in this case on an emotional day. I think what you miss is that not everyone has the time, inclination or ability to forensically analyse every commemorative act to vet it for its veracity and meaningfulnessness. They just take a little time out of busy lives to nod in the direction of those in general who seem to have done something for us. Do you forensically analyse every charity you give to? Do you never say "good morning" because somewhere on earth it is snowing? Maybe folk are just trying to be nice, in our own inadequate way. Sheffield Saintie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali91 Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 One of the best posts I've read on here from Brogan. Absolutely no surprise that a Rangers fan finds it disgraceful. blueheaven, monkfish and fazman1977 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali91 Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 'You may not like what Rangers do but at least they do it.' Dearie me. Rangers politicisation of the poppy and football in general is one of the reasons that some people were uncomfortable with the idea of the thing in the first place. The day that St Johnstone fans need advice from Rangers fans on how to behave will never happen. fazman1977, Havana Saint and blueheaven 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 I’ve just come back – ironically from a moving remembrance service – to read the latest in this thread.Brogan (whoever you are), please keep contributing to this forum. I happen to agree with what you say on this issue, but even if I didn't, I would still agree that your post is amongst the most lucid and eloquent ever to appear on these pages. Whenever a The The Sevco zealot criticises you (as has happened again tonight) you know that you must have said the right thing.Please don't go!And I repeat my request for Saints to hold an 'Emergency Services Day' when police, fire, ambulance, coastguard and NHS staff can be applauded for their efforts and be admitted to the match free of charge. Unlike the armed forces, these people save lives 365 days a year. croc, jazzsaint, blueheaven and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croc Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Seems to me Brogan that unless they died on the field of battle your opinion is they dont deserve "Remembrance" IMO anyone who put on a uniform to serve their country deserves remembrance.! Whether they were blown to pieces in the Somme or whether they died peacefully in bed at the age of ninety.!p.s. the remembrance at McDiarmid was not just for Saints related players or even football players.! It was for those who served their country.! p.s. how do you know what people are thinking during the minutes silence.!? AthensSaint and Cagey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Seems to me Brogan that unless they died on the field of battle your opinion is they dont deserve "Remembrance" IMO anyone who put on a uniform to serve their country deserves remembrance.! Whether they were blown to pieces in the Somme or whether they died peacefully in bed at the age of ninety.!p.s. the remembrance at McDiarmid was not just for Saints related players or even football players.! It was for those who served their country.! p.s. how do you know what people are thinking during the minutes silence.!? Croc, you are completely missing the point. "Remembrance" should NOT be just about those in uniform, but also the innocent civilians. Did you know, for example, that in WW2, more civilians than armed forces died? Misguided, though no doubt well-intentioned, events such as Saints' Armed Forces Day simply serve to reinforce the notion held by you and many others that 'Remembrance' is exclusive to the armed forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croc Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) Croc, you are completely missing the point. "Remembrance" should NOT be just about those in uniform, but also the innocent civilians. Did you know, for example, that in WW2, more civilians than armed forces died? Misguided, though no doubt well-intentioned, events such as Saints' Armed Forces Day simply serve to reinforce the notion held by you and many others that 'Remembrance' is exclusive to the armed forces.Of course I know that more civilians died than those in uniform.! Without even spending a whole days research like Brogan.! A visit to Auschwitz brought that numerical fact home to me.! Thank god people were willing to risk their necks to put an end to this evil.! They served their country and their fellow human beings. "Willingly"...and thus are more than worthy of remembrance.!IMO Edited November 8, 2015 by croc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 They served their country and their fellow human beings. "Willingly"...I wasn't aware that conscription equates to "willingly". That notwithstanding, at no time have I said that those who lost their lives in conflict whilst serving in the armed forces should not be commemorated - of course they should. I'm glad you acknowledge that Remembrance Day should be about innocent civilians as well.COYS blueheaven 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
south inch Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Brogan you are some guy. In your post justifying your attempt to change minds you say "I've insulted no-one". Earlier in the same post you doubt that people are really remembering the human cost. You add "I got the impression that anyone listening yesterday didn't think much about it". Well that is an insult way above the level of being called "blinkered" etc.I was thinking about the uncle I never met because he was killed, age 18, two weeks before the First World War ended. Also my father's good friends, Black Watch 6th Battalion, who died on the Dunkirk beaches. I don't claim to know what others are thinking but I would be astonished if I was the only one present thinking along those lines. Kilgour, croc and AthensSaint 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croc Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 I wasn't aware that conscription equates to "willingly". That notwithstanding, at no time have I said that those who lost their lives in conflict whilst serving in the armed forces should not be commemorated - of course they should. I'm glad you acknowledge that Remembrance Day should be about innocent civilians as well.COYSIm sure if you do a bit of diligent research you will find that the willing "Volunteers" vastly outnumbered the "Conscripts" who deservedly should be remembered as they never had any choice in the matter.! as should be the ones who stood up to their superior officers during WW1 and told them to GTF.! and were summarily executed for having the balls to rebel.! All should be remembered.! Thats what rememberance day is for.!....My opinion on " War" might not be too far away from yours..!.........https://youtu.be/UyiLfSHSqds Norsaint 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Im sure if you do a bit of diligent research you will find that the willing "Volunteers" vastly outnumbered the "Conscripts" who deservedly should be remembered as they never had any choice in the matter.! as should be the ones who stood up to their superior officers during WW1 and told them to GTF.! and were summarily executed for having the balls to rebel.! All should be remembered.! Thats what rememberance day is for.!....My opinion on " War" might not be too far away from yours..!.........https://youtu.be/UyiLfSHSqds We are at risk of becoming two bald men arguing over a comb here! Re WW1, yes I agree totally, but after that disastrous war, 'volunteering' in the UK virtually disappeared in WW2 and subsequent conflicts. I don't need 'diligent research' to recall that conscription began as soon as WW2 was declared.One of my other gripes is that (almost certainly due to the powerful symbolism of the poppy) Remembrance Day is still generally associated with WW1 alone, rather than being an occasion to remember all wars. The one good thing about yesterday's 'Armed Forces Day' was that it involved real live people who, in more recent times, have had experience of the dreadful realities of war. Dr Christmas Jones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croc Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 We are at risk of becoming two bald men arguing over a comb here! Re WW1, yes I agree totally, but after that disastrous war, 'volunteering' in the UK virtually disappeared in WW2 and subsequent conflicts. I don't need 'diligent research' to recall that conscription began as soon as WW2 was declared.One of my other gripes is that (almost certainly due to the powerful symbolism of the poppy) Remembrance Day is still generally associated with WW1 alone, rather than being an occasion to remember all wars. The one good thing about yesterday's 'Armed Forces Day' was that it involved real live people who, in more recent times, have had experience of the dreadful realities of war. Wheres me Comb.! he he .! all wars are disastrous Percy.! I wont argue about the whys and wherefores of conscription with you as you have taken a wee while with your comeback and have probably been doing a wee bit of due diligence .! I personally think the ceremony went down well with the Saints fans and encompasses the community focus that Saints are all about.!As to what people were thinking during the minutes silence.! South Inch sums it up for me and no doubt many others who were remembering family members lost to War.! Norsaint, Percy Johnston, HOODLUM65 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueheaven Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Seems to me Brogan that unless they died on the field of battle your opinion is they dont deserve "Remembrance" IMO anyone who put on a uniform to serve their country deserves remembrance.! Whether they were blown to pieces in the Somme or whether they died peacefully in bed at the age of ninety.!p.s. the remembrance at McDiarmid was not just for Saints related players or even football players.! It was for those who served their country.! p.s. how do you know what people are thinking during the minutes silence.!? I've always been under the impression that Remembrance is specifically a dedication to those who have lost their lives in conflict. Of course, it's up to everyone to decide who they choose to 'remember', but I'm a bit uncomfortable with your suggestion that it's for "anyone who put on a uniform to serve their country". What about the many people who have done good things or made sacrifices without going anywhere near a uniform? And, of course, the many civilians who get caught up in our politicians' wars through no decision of their own and are just trying to lead their lives. We all die eventually, after all - is one life more deserving of 'remembrance' than another? Maybe we, as a society, should be doing more than just 'remembering them' and we should be asking why they were put into those positions in the first place. Maybe instead of criticising people for not wearing poppies or criticising each other for disagreeing with holding an event at a football match, we should be criticising our elected leaders who routinely send these people to their deaths but then think it is enough to simply bow their heads and look all solemn for a few seconds on one Sunday of the year. Brogan - your post is one of the best I've ever read on here, and the only thing I would disagree with you on is making it your last. No matter how reasonable you try to be in explaining your point, you'll always come up against knee-jerkers and name-callers and people who wilfully misinterpret (oh, and Rangers supporters) - it's just part of being on a forum.The event at McDiarmid on Saturday was fine. My favourite part of it was when Super Chris Kane fired in the winner. That's what I was there for. Edited November 9, 2015 by blueheaven lethamsaintee, Ali91 and Percy Johnston 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Wallace Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 I found the occasion on Saturday to be quite moving, especially seeing the veterans and also the on field tributes just before the game. My 11 year old son (who doesn't go to games - his older brother does), saw the match programme sitting on the kitchen table this morning and pointed out to me that Saints had used an image of "the English poppy" instead of the Scottish on the front cover. According to him the English version has two broad petals and a leaf behind it, whilst the Scottish version produced by PoppyScotland has four petals and no leaf (they'd been studying this at school). I must admit I had no idea there was a difference. mainstand 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgour Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 A few mentions of Rangers "politicising" the poppy on this Saints forum so I dont feel too off topic to report that Celtic have publicly apologised today for some of their fans disrupting the minutes silence.No pun intended but this is my last post...on this subject.Its 12 months till it rolls round again. Dr Christmas Jones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 A few mentions of Rangers "politicising" the poppy on this Saints forum so I dont feel too off topic to report that Celtic have publicly apologised today for some of their fans disrupting the minutes silence.No pun intended but this is my last post...on this subject.Its 12 months till it rolls round again.I did see a post on facebook last night which went along the lines of:The annual remembrance day:James McLean will get lambasted by some for not wearing a poppy on his strip.Celtic will give £10k to poppy ScotlandRangers will still owe poppy Scotland money form the administrationRangers will play at hoe and have a major hoo hahCeltic will play away form home and get slammed because of a number of drunken idiots.Sadly what a lot of folk have forgotten is that it has absolutely nothing to do with football!!! Blues Brother, Cagey and Dr Christmas Jones 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOODLUM65 Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Some of the comments on here are enough to start a war. Tranmere Saintee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cagey Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Can we not just draw a line under this as there is never going to be agreement. SaintJet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
541ntees Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 I did see a post on facebook last night which went along the lines of:The annual remembrance day:James McLean will get lambasted by some for not wearing a poppy on his strip.Celtic will give £10k to poppy ScotlandRangers will still owe poppy Scotland money form the administrationRangers will play at hoe and have a major hoo hahCeltic will play away form home and get slammed because of a number of drunken idiots.Sadly what a lot of folk have forgotten is that it has absolutely nothing to do with football!!!I could hve wrote that on fb last night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgour Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 A few mentions of Rangers "politicising" the poppy on this Saints forum so I dont feel too off topic to report that Celtic have publicly apologised today for some of their fans disrupting the minutes silence.No pun intended but this is my last post...on this subject.Its 12 months till it rolls round again.Correct Mainstand,just quoting a fact.Lets shut up shop and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintJet Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Or we could just stop pretending that we're still a global superpower and join 95% of the world by having a small token army?? We'd maybe even stop pissing off the extremists if we stopped invading their countries. Boom. Problem solWell said. It's clear there will be no agreement on such an emotive subject.I myself made some comments on Saturday night which were unwarranted and using several Jack Daniels as an excuse is not particularly clever- I apologize if I offended anyone - it was an poignant occasion for some of us.Please can we move on and get back to the reason we are all here - Supporting our football team- St. Johnstone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest Saints Fan Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 But you're not so cheerio back to supporting the cheating bigots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevco zombie Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 One of the best posts I've read on here from Brogan. Absolutely no surprise that a Rangers fan finds it disgraceful. if i was a saints fan id still be saying the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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