Dundee V St.Johnstone - Tuesday 2nd January

[rickardo]

**** Dundee 

[slf]

9 minutes ago, rickardo said:

**** Dundee 

Exactly 

[slf]

The amount of polis at the game and outside the ground was quite a lot 

looks like easy overtime for them.

[Cagey]

9 Saints players retreating in the box  in the last few minutes but nobody trying to close down the cross.

pathetic defending and the guy still got a free header to win the game.

we are back in the s hit again when we should be pushing to win the game when a goal up.

same against Motherwell, got an early goal then sat back and made them look good.

that's two 6 pointers that we hadn't won the to Leveins anti football.

 

[Dav69]

11 hours ago, Saints11 said:

Outplayed & VAR controversy or not, we got what we deserved today. This is now going to be our third year of decline. 

2021/22 Finish second bottom of the league & survive via the play off. We did reach the semi final of the league cup but were knocked out in the fourth rd of the Scottish Cup by lower league club Kelty Hearts

2022/23 Finish fourth bottom of the league. Eliminated from the league cup at the group stage & again knocked out in the fourth rd of the Scottish Cup albeit by Rangers

2023/24 Currently third bottom of the league. Eliminated from the league cup at the group stage again & again knocked out in the fourth rd of the Scottish Cup and again by another lower league club Airdrie

Current league form, 5 wins from 25. So currently we’ve a 20% or 1 in 5 win ratio. 

Second lowest goalscorers in the league with 17. Only Livingston have scored less and to be fair ever Saints fan out there hopes that neither they or County improve

Club has been up for sale for what now seems like forever. Is there an end in sight, because it doesn’t look like it. So we’re stuck with owners, who although have done so much for the club, want out

I’ve been a Saintee for over 40 years and will be for the rest of my days and whilst the euphoria of the cup wins will never ever leave us the last few years have been poor.

We need, in my humble opinion, new owners, investment and to introduce a positive style of play that doesn’t involve one up front. Let’s start setting up to win games rather than not to lose.

Totally agree with the best quote of 2024 and without singling out an individual player . First class. Correct on formations ( 1 up front and wing backs gets on my tits) . Even teams in and around us look fantastic on Sportscene the way they set up and attack and we get reduced to paying to watch rubbish . The writing was on the wall for this club after Europe and cup wins with no ambition. I see another Falkirk/ Dunfermline on the wall. Bring back wingers and 2 up front . Oh how I wish for a team with Maskrey , Moore and a Roddy, Even a Docherty , Morton and a Brogie. Talking about Jim Morton who I remember scoring from a corner at a Brockvile late 70,s and this was a time to look forward to a corner and now for the love of me I can’t understand why we get excited at a corner cause what we ever done from one , nowadays we can get the ball past the first man or either it leads to a foul !!!!!!!!! .  The thought that it could be a top 6 after Sunday , What ? With this Squad ? Naw!! 

[blueheaven]

Levein laying into the players at full-time whilst completely blind to the fact that he himself has had an absolute shocker.

At 1-0 up I thought we looked pretty comfortable and there's no reason at all why we couldn't have gone on to get three points and be sitting 6th in the table right now. What a huge boost that would have been, and a brilliant platform for the rest of our season. Instead Levein starts tinkering in an attempt to defend our lead, completely unsettles the team and it backfires gigantically. The introductions of Max and Connor Smith with over half an hour still to play weakened us massively and we just crumbled after that. How does a guy with over 25 years of football management experience get that so wrong?

Such fine margins between success and failure in the league right now and it's infuriating to see us again fail to take advantage of the opportunity to actually turn this into a good season. Since Levein arrived we've surrendered 12 points from winning positions, and from what I've seen this is entirely down to his game management decisions. Those 12 points would have us joint fourth. Instead, we continue to teeter above the bottom two and look very lucky that Livi and Ross County are having such bad seasons. If County make a decent appointment to replace Adams and pick up a few good results, we're suddenly going to look like we're in a lot of trouble again. Just not good enough.

 

[blueheaven]

P.S. As much as I agree with all the criticism of VAR, what was Liam Gordon thinking putting his hand all over the Dundee player's face like that? He should know better than anyone in the team that his every move is going to be reviewed and scrutinised in these situations. Very soft penalty and ridiculous circumstances, but let's not hide from the fact that it was also completely avoidable.

On the up side, I thought Sidibeh looked really good. Fast, hard-working, good in the air, good technique, hard shot. Would like him to get a run in the team to see what he can do once he's settled in a bit.

[Cagey]

1 hour ago, blueheaven said:

Levein laying into the players at full-time whilst completely blind to the fact that he himself has had an absolute shocker.

At 1-0 up I thought we looked pretty comfortable and there's no reason at all why we couldn't have gone on to get three points and be sitting 6th in the table right now. What a huge boost that would have been, and a brilliant platform for the rest of our season. Instead Levein starts tinkering in an attempt to defend our lead, completely unsettles the team and it backfires gigantically. The introductions of Max and Connor Smith with over half an hour still to play weakened us massively and we just crumbled after that. How does a guy with over 25 years of football management experience get that so wrong?

Such fine margins between success and failure in the league right now and it's infuriating to see us again fail to take advantage of the opportunity to actually turn this into a good season. Since Levein arrived we've surrendered 12 points from winning positions, and from what I've seen this is entirely down to his game management decisions. Those 12 points would have us joint fourth. Instead, we continue to teeter above the bottom two and look very lucky that Livi and Ross County are having such bad seasons. If County make a decent appointment to replace Adams and pick up a few good results, we're suddenly going to look like we're in a lot of trouble again. Just not good enough.

 

I think we all knew what we were getting when Geoff appointed Levein , a man obsessed with not losing a goal.

I still hate the man after going over to the Czech Republic and watching a team who were better than them playing without a striker for 90 mins and lose to a late goal " is there a theme there " ?.

[SaintJet]

That was an absolute sickener! To lose that game after having enjoyed good passages of play and looking so steady in defense spoiled the weekend.

We have been done by VAR a few times so I'm not even discussing it. Baffeling decision by officialls just wanting to cause controversey.

Dundee looked to get forward all the time and have some tidy players - I thought McCowan was a standout - but for all their forays we looked sound at the back although they have some pacey wingers that caused us issues. If they hadn't got that pen pretty sure we would have won the game but we lost focus after the goal near the end and it cost us the game. We really should have been further ahead anyway. Total sickener.

Despite another change around the team looked pretty solid, Matt Smith was excellent and the two lads up front were a handful; Sidibeh looks a real star, his positioning and technical ability were outstanding - he'll score goals in this league. Kimpioka too was excellent. He caused all sorts of problems with his pace and his frustration was obvious when he got hooked. That was a mistake.

I have to say looking at the squad we have it's incredible that we're still unsure of our prefered starting lineup and who would believe that Kane and Clark can't find a place in the team, a few months back I thought our survival was depending on them being in the team.

We are going to give someone a good hammering one day I'm sure of it but just now I just feel scunnered.

[RandomGuy]

You could tell Levein was going to have one of his days when he started Kerr Smith ahead of McGowan.

Thought Kane and Clark on for Kimpioka and Sidibeh, to try to change things so the ball sticks up front and we can keep it for a while, was the best plan.

But he never signed either of them, so presumably they're just automatically put to the bottom of the pile and instead we get two paceless, positionless, players on who neither attack any spaces nor defend any men.

Effectively put ourselves down to 9 men, with one of the nine an absolutely ****ed and isolated lone striker, when trying to defend a lead away from home. 

[SaintJet]

28 minutes ago, Cagey said:

I think we all knew what we were getting when Geoff appointed Levein , a man obsessed with not losing a goal.

I still hate the man after going over to the Czech Republic and watching a team who were better than them playing without a striker for 90 mins and lose to a late goal " is there a theme there " ?.

Would you lie doon.

Try and come up with something worthy of discussion; I don't want to sound like Chris Sutton - 'but, your better than that.'

[slf]

3 hours ago, Dav69 said:

Totally agree with the best quote of 2024 and without singling out an individual player . First class. Correct on formations ( 1 up front and wing backs gets on my tits) . Even teams in and around us look fantastic on Sportscene the way they set up and attack and we get reduced to paying to watch rubbish . The writing was on the wall for this club after Europe and cup wins with no ambition. I see another Falkirk/ Dunfermline on the wall. Bring back wingers and 2 up front . Oh how I wish for a team with Maskrey , Moore and a Roddy, Even a Docherty , Morton and a Brogie. Talking about Jim Morton who I remember scoring from a corner at a Brockvile late 70,s and this was a time to look forward to a corner and now for the love of me I can’t understand why we get excited at a corner cause what we ever done from one , nowadays we can get the ball past the first man or either it leads to a foul !!!!!!!!! .  The thought that it could be a top 6 after Sunday , What ? With this Squad ? Naw!! 

I was at brockville to see Jim Morton score directly fae a corner . 
 

it was most braw now we can’t take a corner and someone anyone scores .

[slf]

Here when we went up the park if we had scored .then would it stand when referee went back to give them a penalty .

Fuk nose .

isnt var fun .not

[SaintJet]

5 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

You could tell Levein was going to have one of his days when he started Kerr Smith ahead of McGowan.

Thought Kane and Clark on for Kimpioka and Sidibeh, to try to change things so the ball sticks up front and we can keep it for a while, was the best plan.

But he never signed either of them, so presumably they're just automatically put to the bottom of the pile and instead we get two paceless, positionless, players on who neither attack any spaces nor defend any men.

Effectively put ourselves down to 9 men, with one of the nine an absolutely ****ed and isolated lone striker, when trying to defend a lead away from home. 

So to be clear you didn't think the two players who started up front Kimpioka and Sidibeh played any part in us being ahead midway through the second half|?

[R.B.B:- Adz]

New post match analysis, same problem!

Ryan McGowan and Sven Sprangler on the bench - weird!

Max Kucheriavyi pointlessly introduced to a game where he added nothing.

Baffling!

[RandomGuy]

7 minutes ago, SaintJet said:

So to be clear you didn't think the two players who started up front Kimpioka and Sidibeh played any part in us being ahead midway through the second half|?

I thought they done really well and Sidibeh is exciting.

I thought when he took Kimpioka off, he shouldve also taken Sidibeh off, and replaced them with Kane and Clark.

Keep the front two, but have them playing more controlled and more about keeping the ball up there. Kimpioka/Sidibeh was more about chaos and trying to get to goal as quickly as possible once they had it.

[SaintJet]

10 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

I thought they done really well and Sidibeh is exciting.

I thought when he took Kimpioka off, he shouldve also taken Sidibeh off, and replaced them with Kane and Clark.

Keep the front two, but have them playing more controlled and more about keeping the ball up there. Kimpioka/Sidibeh was more about chaos and trying to get to goal as quickly as possible once they had it.

Fair comment and I would agree

[Cagey]

1 hour ago, SaintJet said:

That was an absolute sickener! To lose that game after having enjoyed good passages of play and looking so steady in defense spoiled the weekend.

We have been done by VAR a few times so I'm not even discussing it. Baffeling decision by officialls just wanting to cause controversey.

Dundee looked to get forward all the time and have some tidy players - I thought McCowan was a standout - but for all their forays we looked sound at the back although they have some pacey wingers that caused us issues. If they hadn't got that pen pretty sure we would have won the game but we lost focus after the goal near the end and it cost us the game. We really should have been further ahead anyway. Total sickener.

Despite another change around the team looked pretty solid, Matt Smith was excellent and the two lads up front were a handful; Sidibeh looks a real star, his positioning and technical ability were outstanding - he'll score goals in this league. Kimpioka too was excellent. He caused all sorts of problems with his pace and his frustration was obvious when he got hooked. That was a mistake.

I have to say looking at the squad we have it's incredible that we're still unsure of our prefered starting lineup and who would believe that Kane and Clark can't find a place in the team, a few months back I thought our survival was depending on them being in the team.

We are going to give someone a good hammering one day I'm sure of it but just now I just feel scunnered.

How are we going to give someone a hammering , do you think we are going to punt Le vein ?.

[Gekko]

Like most others, I can't really understand the subs on Sunday.

Why those players and at that time, it didn't make sense.

We weren't under any real pressure, and then after going with one up front, all we did was invite wave after wave of Dundee attacks.

But let's face it, it's been proven in the past that Levein just loves to defend in that way.

I don't agree. For me, all it does is tire out the defence, both physically and mentally until a mistake inevitably happens.

And why Max? He's hardly the Roy Keane type that's going to shore up the midfield.

I feel sorry for the lad because I think he's just not ready for this level yet and he's getting pushed into it every week. A quick loan at Dunfermline or the likes for the rest of the season would help him progress.

What's up with Gordon? How many of those points we've dropped from winning positions have been down to him making a hash of things?

It's becoming so frequent that we'll have to start running a sweepie on what time of the match he'll give a penalty away in.

In these days of VAR, the old saying of "don't give the ref a decision to make" is truer than ever.

He's one of us and his overall game is decent, but this recklessness needs to be coached out of him and soon.

Why was McGowan dropped for such an important game? He's been one of our most consistent performers.

It seems that Levein is a manager who has his favourites, and no matter how they perform, they'll be on the teamsheet most weeks. That's the only reason I can come up with as to why Sprangler has fallen out of favour.

I agree with those who say that Kane should have got the nod if we were trying to manage the game. He would have made himself a nuisance and held the ball up in their half which would have given our defenders a breather.

I also think he gives us something we don't have with any of the other forwards at the moment, so although I realise it's more a financial decision than anything else, it would have made more sense to keep him, so he could come on from the bench when his skillset was required. 

Also, why keep Sidibeh on when he was knackered? Clark might have nicked an all important second because that's what he does.

What did Maloney do with Robinson when he was recalled? He's come back half the player he was. He seems to have no confidence and constantly looks for the easy option, or in other words, pass back to Considine.

In this set up, Scott Tanser would have thrived. But we don't currently have anybody on either side to do the wingback job effectively.

Which brings me to this, I know Levein likes three at the back and one up front, but it's not the only option.

With the players we have we could easily do a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 and everybody would be in their preferred positions.

Keltjens at RB, Robinson at LB, since he seems to have lost any ability to go forward. Take your pick of the CBs, or whoever's fit.

DJ at right wing, because apparently that's his actual position. Carey on the left, usual suspects in the middle.

And two from the multitude of attackers we have on the books, or maybe one behind the main striker for 4-4-1-1.

A setup like this might not only be effective, but maybe even entertaining.

Although there's a long way to go, Levein's so far doing the job that was given to him when he signed up, in other words, keep us up. We're far from the basket case we were when he took over.

But let's be honest, some of the decision making is baffling and the football on offer isn't going to win over any new fans.

But as long as we stay up, he's done his job. Then we can find out the kind of team he really wants over the summer.

[SaintJet]

23 hours ago, blueheaven said:

P.S. As much as I agree with all the criticism of VAR, what was Liam Gordon thinking putting his hand all over the Dundee player's face like that? He should know better than anyone in the team that his every move is going to be reviewed and scrutinised in these situations. Very soft penalty and ridiculous circumstances, but let's not hide from the fact that it was also completely avoidable.

On the up side, I thought Sidibeh looked really good. Fast, hard-working, good in the air, good technique, hard shot. Would like him to get a run in the team to see what he can do once he's settled in a bit.

Watched the game back and I have to say it's easy to lambast Gordon about the penalty but it was the most ridiculous infringement I think I've seen given as a foul - a loose hand brushing against an opposition player's face which was actually caused by another player barging him. The look on the Dundee player's face said it all when the award was given. It's all very well saying the player should know better but defending in this league is all about physicality and timing, if officialls interpret these as game changing penalties the game is lost!

I also get why Levein was annoyed after the game - the time and space that MaGhee got to head the winner was crimminal and that's defending 101 in Levein's book.

We have to defend our goal better than that.

I'm still scunnered. 

[R.B.B:- Adz]

58 minutes ago, SaintJet said:

I also get why Levein was annoyed after the game - the time and space that MaGhee got to head the winner was crimminal and that's defending 101 in Levein's book.

We have to defend our goal better than that.

I'm still scunnered. 

He should have put some more effort into signing a centre half in January then. The centre backs at the club at the moment are dire. For a man who apparently prides himself on defending and managing clubs who are hard to score against, he is putting a lot of faith in 4/5 very average defenders.

Andy Considine will be 37 years old in a few weeks.

Liam Gordon is very limited.

Ryan McGowan is a converted right back who will be 35 years old in the summer.

Luke Robinson is a rookie learning his trade while having his role chopped and changed weekly.

Tony Gallagher is just simply a championship player.

 

Edited February 13 by R.B.B:- Adz

[garydavidson]

1 hour ago, SaintJet said:

Watched the game back and I have to say it's easy to lambast Gordon about the penalty but it was the most ridiculous infringement I think I've seen given as a foul - a loose hand brushing against an opposition player's face which was actually caused by another player barging him. The look on the Dundee player's face said it all when the award was given. It's all very well saying the player should know better but defending in this league is all about physicality and timing, if officialls interpret these as game changing penalties the game is lost!

It is interesting that the Dundee player told his manager he got a full elbow to the face!

[SaintJet]

16 minutes ago, R.B.B:- Adz said:

He should have put some more effort into signing a centre half in January then. The centre backs at the club at the moment are dire. For a man who apparently prides himself on defending and managing clubs who are hard to score against, he is putting a lot of faith in 4/5 very average defenders.

Andy Considine will be 37 years old in a few weeks.

Liam Gordon is very limited.

Ryan McGowan is a converted right back who will be 35 years old in the summer.

Luke Robinson is a rookie learning his trade while having his role chopped and changed weekly.

Tony Gallagher is just simply a championship player.

 

I couldn't agree more but young, strong, competent center backs are like goal scoring centre forwards very rare. No doubt that this will be addressed in the summer but that experience between the players you mention should still see us marshall the line better as the game runs down.

[Saintdunc]

1 hour ago, R.B.B:- Adz said:

Tony Gallagher is just simply a championship player.

 

Should be fine next season then! 

[SaintJet]

And to put the tin hat on it - I missed this but my Dundee colleagues here are reminding me that the stadium announcer called the attendance with "1962" away fans!! Ho ho. 

Sometimes you just have to take it on the chin I guess...