The System

[blueheaven]

This comes up so often that I feel it deserves a thread of its own.

I'm just baffled by our manager's insistence on sticking with our current system and I'd love for someone to offer up an argument against any of these points and reassure me that I'm actually wrong.

• Our persistence with a back three, consisting of players who are reasonably solid defensively but possess limited ability to get forward and contribute to an attack, means that we're often outnumbered when we try to create, and end up passing the ball sideways or backwards.
• The task given to our wing-backs is virtually impossible. They're asked to cover an entire side of the pitch on their own, acting as both defenders and attackers. I believe a wing-back system very rarely works, unless you have exceptionally fit, athletic and talented players for those positions. It worked for us when Rooney first broke into the team, but Rooney was a one-off. Other than that, as far as I can tell, our wing-backs have worked hard and done their best but consistently struggled to provide any attacking threat or service to our forwards. So why use wing-backs at all?
• We still seem to have no holding midfielder. Phillips may hopefully come onto a game but based on his first few games I'm not sure he's that kind of player. Last season we often used Murray Davidson as our sitting midfielder but, while good at breaking up play, he contributes little when it comes to looking for the ball and playing it on. Crawford doesn't play that role. MacPherson doesn't play that role. Hallberg doesn't play that role. So when our back three have the ball, no one comes to look for it from them, and the ball has nowhere to go. I'm starting to think we'd have been better off if we'd given Butterfield another year, and that's really saying something.
• Despite Hallberg showing last season that he can make a big difference in an attacking role, we've reverted to a system in which he doesn't fit, and he's now forced to sit back. We've effectively nullified the threat of arguably our own best player. Surely that's madness?
• Carey and Murphy both seem to be talented footballers but are we really getting the best out of them and is there really room for both of them in the same starting line-up? I'd have thought we need to either stick one on either side and use them as out-and-out wingers (but do they have the pace for that?), or play just one of them behind a couple of strikers (but we lack the strikers for that, and besides, we already had Hallberg for that role if we were going to play that system). I'm just struggling to see how signing both of these players was the best use of our budget, when we're so lacking in other areas.
• The system relies on having an out-and-out centre-forward who is able to make an impact through the middle on his own, and yet we don't have a player like that in the squad. So why are we playing it? Both Bair and May would probably be helped by having a strike partner, but for some reason we've gone into the season with no other strikers so we rotate endlessly between the two of them, with each one looking as ineffective as the other. It's not working, so why are we still doing it?

In pre-season Davidson said he wanted his squad to be more flexible this season and we'd be less wedded to a particular system. Other than occasional enforced changes which have been made at times when we've been chasing games, I've seen very little evidence of this flexibility in action, and yet we continue to lose games. When a team keeps losing games, is it not the manager's job to try doing things differently, instead of doing the same things week after week after week?

Please, someone, tear all this apart and tell me Callum Davidson's masterplan involves any sort of plan at all, and that things are suddenly, miraculously, just going to click into place and come good on their own?

 

[rik2304]

The system worked because McCann, Kerr, Rooney and Kane made it work. 

It clicked with their strengths and we saw what happened. Especially in one off cup ties. 

IMO the manager is persistent because it worked then so why not now. But we now have players that are nowhere near the quality of McCann,Kerr and Rooney. And the role that Kane played had not been added to or strengthened or varied.

Plus other clubs have figured us out and Callum has no plan B. 

[GMac]

It is not working, will never work with the current players.  Davidson will NOT be / is NOT flexible.   BH's post sums it up and I am certain that this season will be a repeat of last year - eye bleedingly bad , no entertainment, downright depressing. I hate being negative when it comes to Saints, but I fear we are doomed if we stick with him in charge.

[Aitchy]

1 hour ago, blueheaven said:

In pre-season Davidson said he wanted his squad to be more flexible this season and we'd be less wedded to a particular system. Other than occasional enforced changes which have been made at times when we've been chasing games, I've seen very little evidence of this flexibility in action, and yet we continue to lose games. When a team keeps losing games, is it not the manager's job to try doing things differently, instead of doing the same things week after week after week?

Please, someone, tear all this apart and tell me Callum Davidson's masterplan involves any sort of plan at all, and that things are suddenly, miraculously, just going to click into place and come good on their own?

 

I think it would be very difficult for anyone to put up an honest defence of Davidsons current system and game plan. I remember a quote from him in the "Make mine a double" book along the line of "the more people try to tell me something is wrong, the more stubborn I become in trying to prove them wrong". This so called stubbornness has now tipped into insanity. Surely our record over the past year and manner of performances has led to Davidson questioning his system?

My anger is now solely aimed at our absent chairman. Where is he? Apparently he no longer wants to be involved with the day to day running of the club. Well our 2,500 season tickets holders and fans that spend hard earned money following the team all over the country deserve much better leadership than this. What is his vision for the club moving forward? Is he looking to sell up? So many concerning stories coming out of the club right now about their treatment of sponsors and people who care deeply about the club.

[mainstand]

41 minutes ago, Aitchy said:

My anger is now solely aimed at our absent chairman. Where is he? Apparently he no longer wants to be involved with the day to day running of the club. Well our 2,500 season tickets holders and fans that spend hard earned money following the team all over the country deserve much better leadership than this. What is his vision for the club moving forward? Is he looking to sell up? So many concerning stories coming out of the club right now about their treatment of sponsors and people who care deeply about the club.

But how many chairman are involved in day to day running of the Clubs. 

Can you even name the chairmen of some of the 12 SPL clubs? 

He has put Ian Flaherty in his role to manage the club on a day to day basis. What i wonder is if he is actually full time or if he does that role in addition to his sales director role at binns? Someone said that they thought Binns would in time take on ownership of the Club who knows maybe this is a stepping stone towards that. 

I don't, however, see what he is suppose to say at present as unless he says the immortal words "you're fired" it would be wrong in many folks eyes. So I suspect keeping quiet is the best thing to do. 

[Cagey]

3 minutes ago, mainstand said:

But how many chairman are involved in day to day running of the Clubs. 

Can you even name the chairmen of some of the 12 SPL clubs? 

He has put Ian Flaherty in his role to manage the club on a day to day basis. What i wonder is if he is actually full time or if he does that role in addition to his sales director role at binns? Someone said that they thought Binns would in time take on ownership of the Club who knows maybe this is a stepping stone towards that. 

I don't, however, see what he is suppose to say at present as unless he says the immortal words "you're fired" it would be wrong in many folks eyes. So I suspect keeping quiet is the best thing to do. 

How many chairmen stand by and watch a manager ruin their club. Just look at the turn over of managers. If they are not permorming they are out.

And as for his interviews,they are embarrassing.

The half decent performance yesterday bought him a little bit more time unfortunately but surely it has to happen. We can't go on like this ,having to watch the worst team in Premiership, probably even the Championship.

Concerned fan.

[blueheaven]

13 minutes ago, mainstand said:

I don't, however, see what he is suppose to say at present as unless he says the immortal words "you're fired" it would be wrong in many folks eyes. So I suspect keeping quiet is the best thing to do. 

(At the risk of making this a Steve Brown thread) what I expect to hear from him is an explanation for what happened last season, and what is being done to make sure it doesn't happen again. What is the club's plan for the future? What are the club's ambitions? How do we continue to compete with the other clubs in our division? What changes are being put in place to ensure we don't go straight into a second consecutive relegation battle? Why did we go from double cup winners to one of the worst teams in the league, in the space of about six months? What has the club learned from missing out on what would have been a huge cash windfall if we'd progressed in Europe?

If Davidson still has his backing then so be it and I wouldn't expect him to talk about that, but I feel very let down by the fact that we basically heard nothing from the upper management of the club after what was a disastrous season. In previous years it's been fairly normal to hear from Steve Brown or his father at some point following the end of a season, and as paying supporters we deserved at least that after the season we just had.

I sometimes feel that the club just expects everyone to carry on paying its increasingly unrealistic gate prices and say nothing, regardless of results or performances. We should just shut up and sit down, don't deserve any communication about what's going on, and if attendances drop then everything that happens after that is the fans' fault for not turning up. 

[mainstand]

22 minutes ago, Cagey said:

We can't go on like this ,having to watch the worst team in Premiership, probably even the Championship.

Concerned fan going completely off the rails and over the top as usual.

Sorted your signature for you. 

You made a lot of good points up to that last line 

[R.B.B:- Adz]

Wait… this is a “system”… like this is actually planned?!?!? Jings!

[rik2304]

We've heard nothing concrete from the chairman since McCann/ Kerr left.

[Dutch Saint]

It’s a feeling that nothing is being addressed, and that we appear content with mediocrity, to continue a downward spiral beyond The Championship, to ply our trade with those clubs languishing in the nether regions of Scottish football. 

[Sergei]

28 minutes ago, rik2304 said:

We've heard nothing concrete from the chairman since McCann/ Kerr left.

Even at that they were the words Mark Guidi.

21 minutes ago, Dutch Saint said:

It’s a feeling that nothing is being addressed, and that we appear content with mediocrity, to continue a downward spiral beyond The Championship, to ply our trade with those clubs languishing in the nether regions of Scottish football. 

It'll undoubtedly will be an unpopular opinion but I'm disappointed in Geoff, the club's owner. He surely can't be happy at the way his son has overseen the on-field and off-field decline yet we must presumably accept he is. 

 

I'm stunned a long standing, well thought of football professional like Callum has turned out to be such a one trick pony. Apparently a very good coach and tactically aware until he joined us as manager. What on earth happened to that Callum. 

[Shibbydoo]

Pish (the system)

[GMac]

Lets all be a bit more vocal about it, starting on Saturday (unless of course we turn in a 5 * performance)

[That_Dave]

I think the system works well away from home. The problem is with home games. If you look at the league games this season, we've had 3 away games, all to teams who finished in the top 5 last season. 3 points from those games isn't a bad return. We got a win at Motherwell. We did better than last season at Ibrox and were, just about, in the game for most of it. And at Hearts we put up a good fight and it was individual errors rather than the system which let us down. Our away form hasn't been bad this season.

It does make us hard to beat, whilst giving us options going forwards. Four games in two non-OF games isn't bad for a side not exactly known for scoring.

The problem is at home. Teams come wanting to sneak a 1-0 rather than wanting an expansive game and that doesn't really play to our strengths. We'll do ok at home to Old Firm (in games which produce few points), but in the games where we need to take it to the opposition we probably won't do as well. The Aberdeen performance was a lot better than Hibs, so hopefully we are growing into it. But with a couple of winnable home games coming up we'll need results to relieve pressure on Davidson. I suspect the away games coming up will do that anyway.

I suspect the longer-term plan is a different system at home and away. After the World Cup we'll have Kane and Wotherspoon back. I think then we'll have a back four, and either a second striker (Bair or May with Kane), or a midfield five with someone playing very high. If that is the tactic for the season, perhaps trying the away tactic until the break is the better option than bringing in players we might not need.

If the system is used all season away from home I won't be upset. If it's planned to be used in all home games it really needs to start working better than it has so far - but I think the return of Wotherspoon particularly will see an alternative in place.

 

[RandomGuy]

25 minutes ago, That_Dave said:

I suspect the longer-term plan is a different system at home and away. After the World Cup we'll have Kane and Wotherspoon back. I think then we'll have a back four.

Based on what?

We've started 1 game with a back four in Davidsons entire time in charge.

[Cagey]

20 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

Based on what?

We've started 1 game with a back four in Davidsons entire time in charge.

Welcome back.

[dave mc]

He’s switched the system 3 times,at Dumfries,Elgin and Sunday,and there was a definite improvement,hoping he’s learnt the lesson 

[PSJ.84]

It’s been fairly obvious since Callum took over that this system, which he doesn’t prefer, is more effective away from home - Callum Hendry inspired run aside. That makes it even more scandalous that we’re into his third season in charge and he still hasn’t figured out a different way to play at McDiarmid. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by PSJ.84

[saintcraigieboy]

Do you not know that he has said that he doesn’t have the players to play a back four!!

 

[R.B.B:- Adz]

1 hour ago, saintcraigieboy said:

Do you not know that he has said that he doesn’t have the players to play a back four!!

 

You try!!

Who would you play in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. Brown or McGowan right back? Montgomery left back? What is your midfield looking like? Who do you choose as a centre half pairing. We are just weak all over the pitch.

               Matthews

Brown Gordon Mitchell Montgomery

Carey Hallberg Phillips Wright

            Murphy   Bair

 

????

[blueheaven]

11 hours ago, saintcraigieboy said:

Do you not know that he has said that he doesn’t have the players to play a back four!!

 

When did he say that? In June this year he said the opposite:

“People say I like wing-backs and a back three, but that was because of the players we had,” said Davidson.

“I do like a back four as well, so this season we might change it a bit more.

“I’ve got players who might be better suited to playing a four now, so that might allow me to get an extra body forward."

[blueheaven]

15 hours ago, That_Dave said:

I suspect the longer-term plan is a different system at home and away. After the World Cup we'll have Kane and Wotherspoon back. I think then we'll have a back four, and either a second striker (Bair or May with Kane), or a midfield five with someone playing very high. If that is the tactic for the season, perhaps trying the away tactic until the break is the better option than bringing in players we might not need.

If the system is used all season away from home I won't be upset. If it's planned to be used in all home games it really needs to start working better than it has so far - but I think the return of Wotherspoon particularly will see an alternative in place.

I'm not sure why Kane and Wotherspoon returning would bring about a change in system. If anything, those two players are arguably better suited to this system than the players currently playing, as they played in it successfully in our double-winning season.

Have to say I'm a little worried about comments I've heard from some fans who seem to be pinning their hopes on the return of two players who have been out for a very long time and weren't exactly on fire even before picking up their injuries.

[blueheaven]

9 hours ago, R.B.B:- Adz said:

You try!!

Who would you play in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. Brown or McGowan right back? Montgomery left back? What is your midfield looking like? Who do you choose as a centre half pairing. We are just weak all over the pitch.

               Matthews

Brown Gordon Mitchell Montgomery

Carey Hallberg Phillips Wright

            Murphy   Bair

 

????

Personally I think we should have switched to a 4-2-3-1 last season, and then added players over the summer who would fit that system. The issue we have now is that Davidson's raft of signings don't really suit either a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-2-1. We have plenty of options to make up a back four, but when you start trying to work further forward and look at the other positions then that it becomes a struggle. But they don't brilliantly fit Davidson's chosen system either. It's just a jumble of players who don't fit together into any obvious plan.

 

[pezza70]

1 hour ago, blueheaven said:

I'm not sure why Kane and Wotherspoon returning would bring about a change in system. If anything, those two players are arguably better suited to this system than the players currently playing, as they played in it successfully in our double-winning season.

Have to say I'm a little worried about comments I've heard from some fans who seem to be pinning their hopes on the return of two players who have been out for a very long time and weren't exactly on fire even before picking up their injuries.

Banking on Kane and Spoony to save our season is one hell of a gamble.

It’s like we are going all in holding a 3 and 9 and everybody else around us holding at least one pair